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In Reply to: RE: And you might be surprised at how many auditions result in posted by oldmkvi on September 13, 2020 at 08:51:23
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a wind player. :-)
the "buffoon."
. . . you look at the audiences at classical concerts from various minority communities, and, indeed, the orchestra is more or less a reflection of its audience. To me, this indicates that there is perhaps not even a pool of players within minority communities which even corresponds to a given community's distribution in society. IOW, the proportion of minority players auditioning for plum orchestral jobs doesn't even equal that minority's proportion in society - because classical music is not a "thing" in certain minority communities. Why isn't there an outcry for more white people to be represented in the rap music industry?
And then of course there's the elephant in the room: Asian players. Why are Asians so well represented when, a hundred and fifty years ago, they were being used for slave labor (in everything but name) to build much of the railroad structure in this country, and, as recently as WWII, were being put in concentration camps (sorry, internment camps!) here? Why are white people now so comfortable around Asian players and not around black players? Or is that really even true? There could be a lot of white musicians who just kind of "feel guilty" about the current state of race relations, and who thus can be exploited in the larger goals of the "quota industry".
"Why are Asians so well represented when, a hundred and fifty years ago, they were being used for slave labor (in everything but name) to build much of the railroad structure in this country, and, as recently as WWII, were being put in concentration camps (sorry, internment camps!) here?"
You are comparing African Americans to Asian *Americans*
There is this other place that isn't America where you find a lot of Asians. It's called Asia. That's where most of the Asian musicians are coming from.
And yes, there is Africa too. But I think you know the differences between Asia and Africa and why Africa is not a big source for new classical musicians.
. . . of Asian members in American orchestras come from Asia vs. the percentage which come from the US or Canada. It might be revealing. (I wonder if this kind of info exists though.) Of course, I do realize that, yes, if you go back far enough, Asians do come from Asia. ;-)
the VAST majority of African Americans are actual decendants of slaves and suffered through Jim Crow until the 60s and still suffer the most severe racism. MOST Asian Americans are new immigrants or the second and third generation decendants of immigrants. Most of the Asian American population did not come from Chinese indentured servants or Japanese refugee camps
I was just pointing out that the Asian experience in the US was far from rosy itself - and there were severe impediments to their assimilation even through the 50's. But believe me, I'm not trying to make it into a contest.
Off the top of my head I personally know 7 Asians who are members of major U.S. orchestras. They are all from Asian countries.I know that is not exactly a large enough sample but....
Of course, I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily.
I would expect the number to be even higher today. And because of the substantial immigration to the U.S. since WWII many Asians born in the U.S. were of parents or grandparents of Asian immigrants that came well past any of the Chinese slaves (they were slaves for all practical purposes) or Japanese who suffered the concentration camps of WWII. So I thinkit is fair to point out that comparing Asian representation in American orchestras to that of African Americans simply doesn't apply.
I think it is very fair to point out that the disparity is far more likely due to cultural differences that are internal than external racism. However it is clear by the profound change in the complexion of modern orchestras today well after the common use of blind auditions shows us that the extent of raicism and sexism inherent in the process ran very deep. And so long as initial and final auditions are not done blind it will continue to influence orchestral hirings.
BTW, if I may ask, what's the source for your 75% figure?
I exagerated. It was 74% and ony adults in 2012. But....any non adult Asian born in the U.S. will likely be the son or daughter of an immigrant if the number of adults is 74%. Which supports my point that comparing African Americans to Asian Americans because of Chinese slavery 150 years ago or the incarceration of Japanese Americans during WWII is profoundly skewed by the current makeup of the Asian population in America today.
Edits: 09/15/20
Thanks for the link BTW. ;-)
Most Asians living in America are not decendents of Chinese slaves or Japanese concentration camps. So juxtapositioning Asians living in the U.S. with African Americans as two oppressed groups does not hold water. The vast majority of Asians living in America do not share a lineage of severe oppression that almost all African Americans carry. And IF that were the primary cause of lack of representation in American Orchestras it would not apply to Asians.
Some would argue there are already too damn many.
Asian history in this country vs that of blacks. The Civil War. Slavery. What Asians went through was indentured servitude, not the same--- and of VERY short duration. They weren't sold. Their labor was. They weren't beaten or raped or murdered. Their offspring weren't taken from them and sold. I won't go any further as apparently your views aren't shaped from any contact with African-Americans or any in depth reading.
Edits: 09/13/20
. . . of some of the basic info in your own WAPO link. Granted, as with so many WAPO articles, it IS kind of weak in its speculative assertions from figures who owe their authority to their supposed academic standing. Or as the interviewee herself says, she's someone "who thinks about race in American life for a living". And these academics have all this "research" which may "suggest" certain things.
Nevertheless, there's some information in the article that I think we can agree on, and which you neglected to point out in your post. For instance,"In the mid- to late-19th century, all the way through the late 1940s and 1950s, Asians were thought of as "brown hordes" or as the "yellow peril." There was the sinister, weird, "Fu Manchu" stereotype."Or, starting around the 1870's,"Chinese newcomers. . . were an easy target for white American anxieties about the growth of industrial capitalism and the undermining of workers' autonomy and freedom. They believed that the Chinese threatened American independence and threatened American freedom"There were also populist parties in California who promoted slogans like, "The Chinese must go [back to China]!" Does that ring a bell - kind of like, the blacks must "go back to Africa"? In the 1880's, a number of "Chinese Exclusion Acts" were passed with aim of getting rid of this "yellow peril". And in the 1890's, there was even a Chinese registry law.
There's LOTS more history (which you ignored), but, to cut to the chase, you say, "They [Asians] weren't beaten, raped or murdered"? What planet do you live on? Of course they were beaten, raped and murdered. And then you accuse me of having "views aren't shaped from any contact with African-Americans or any in depth reading". Jeezuz, tin, you can be so naive! Project much? I notice that you don't have much to say about African Americans in the non-slave states. I also notice that you don't have very much to say about white soldiers in the northern army during the Civil War who gave their lives (yes, gave their lives )to help end slavery. It sounds to me like you read an article in the WAPO, and now you think you're a big expert. The irony!
I continue to be surprised and disappointed at how someone with such talent and intelligence could be so limited of mind as to find equivalencies between the Asian and Black experience in America.
Please reread tinear's post.
No doubt you will have some smart aleck response here.
They're in the historical record - perhaps you would do well to reread some history yourself.
d
I was genuinely happy to see your return to the various forums (fora?) on this site after your six-year absence, especially since your new persona seemed so much kinder and gentler. But it now seems that you are back in your obnoxious "self-appointed expert on everything" mode (as was pointed out by another inmate on Central recently), and you can't help yourself from making snarky comments about inmates who disagree with you. Not a good look - nor was the "hit and run" nature of this last post of yours very impressive at all.Why don't you try returning to your kinder, gentler ways which characterized your first few weeks of posts after your "prodigal son" return? FWIW.
Edits: 09/14/20
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