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In Reply to: RE: Braiding the AC mains feeding a power amp. posted by Duster on December 07, 2016 at 09:50:28
If the steel conduit is magnetic/ferrous, I would consider another option, if possible. In fact, if the in-wall AC wiring is only 8 feet from the sub panel, I would suggest the wiring be replaced with cryo'd 10 AWG Romex, since it might be possible that braided in-wall AC wiring run through a steel conduit is coloring the sound in some manner. I've always considered a tri-braided cable to be an easy way to build a DIY power cord from scratch rather than a superior geometry. my 2 centsDuster,
Thanks for your response.
It may be a local electrical code issue that dictated conduit had to be used.
IF I had been the one advising the guy I would have recommended he use 2 wire with ground MC aluminum armor cable. That is if it met the local electrical code conduit requirement.
As for what the guy has now I too think his problem is the braided cable installed in the steel conduit. I told him in the thread I thought that was more than likely his problem.
I sent off an email to the guy this morning asking if he had any luck solving his problem. Will see if he responds back.
If he does respond back and the answer is no I am going to recommend he hire an electrical for a day and just run a few new exposed Romex cables just on the floor over to his equipment. The electrician could just install some plastic outlet boxes on the ends of the Romex cables. For the duplex receptacles outlets just pull what he needs from the existing wall outlets.Yeah, it might cost him around $800 but that's peanuts compared to what he has invested in his audio equipment. Not to mention he has been fighting the SQ problem from his system for a year.
Jim
Edits: 12/07/16Follow Ups:
" ... If he does respond back and the answer is no I am going to recommend he hire an electrical for a day and just run a few new exposed Romex cables just on the floor over to his equipment. The electrician could just install some plastic outlet boxes on the ends of the Romex cables. ..."Doesn't meet Code anywhere I'm aware of, so no Electrician would risk a fine (yes, that's what happens) to install it. So either he does it himself (carries it's own problems) or it doesn't get done that way.
I don't know what level of penalty a licensed Electrician would face, but I can tell you that a contractor we normally use forgot to take out a permit on one installation on a job with multiple installations. The fine was $2000.00
Edits: 12/25/16
His system will sound better doing away with the conduit. Any metal conduit will effect the sound
The guy has a separate room on the back side of his audio equipment that cannot be seen from his listening room. (I would guess the room is about 3.5ft to maybe 4.5ft deep running the entire width of the main listening room.) The electrical panel board as well as the branch circuit conduits are surface mounted. He might be able to use PVC conduit and PVC/plastic outlet boxes, if local electrical code allows it to be exposed. I think MC cable would be a better way to go. he could use malleable aluminum boxes for the receptacle outlets. What do you think? Any other Ideas?
Jim
Edits: 12/08/16
My preference would be 10awg and plastic.
Here is what the guy has now.All the dedicated branch circuits are installed in their own EMT steel conduit.
The guy says the branch circuit wiring installed in each conduit is braided together. The hot conductor, the neutral conductor, and the green insulated equipment grounding conductor. One dedicated circuit is 240V 30 amp for a Boulder 3060 power amp.
My question is could this braided wire installed in a steel conduit be causing his SQ problem. Especially for the power amp. To me even though the wiring is a branch circuit fed from the electrical panel it looks to me to be basically a shield braided cable. The 3 conductors are #12. I also think they are stranded wire. He didn't say if it is a factory braided assembly. I think it is....
.
Here is his first post:
I had a custom room built and spared no expense. Hired a power consultant who designed a system with a 15KVa isolation transformer and a custom breaker panel that feeds only the audio room. System incorporates isolated grounds and IG outlets. The advantage I have is that I know how my system should sound because I only changed one piece of equipment from my old to new room. System is Wilson Alexandria, Boulder 2110 pre, 3060 amp (had 2060 before and they sound very similar) and full vivaldi stack. System had incredible detail and thunderous bass. Now has decent detail and soggy bass (hyperbole). After a year, I had the electrician take the isolation transformer out of the system and run a new line from the street to the breaker panel. Everything is much better now, but still has a layer of syrup over the presentation that shouldn't be there and loose bass. Room acoustics are a bit different, but the power is the biggest difference. What gives?
His second post. His response to mine:
In metal conduits. Single run of 12G braided wire in each conduit. Run from subpanel is <8 ft in all cases. Probably 20 or so lines coming of the subpanel. Don't know about the interconnects. There are 2 legs, but all my equipment fits on one leg. Old room had lines slowly added over time. Amp was running 240 in there as well. I believe it was wired with 10G solid core cable. There was a mix of metal and "plastic" conduits and boxes in the old room. ( BTW, had serious ground loops in the old room, but the Boulder gear was fairly impervious to it. I demoed a single ended Lamm amp and it buzzed like a fiend!) Using a mix of hubbell and voodoo (cryoed hubbell outlets) in new room. Plastic plates.
So what do you think? Any ideas?
Jim
Edits: 12/08/16
The conduit in not good. 12awg stranded in wall is going to sound different then solid core. Since probably 100% of power cords designed with solid core in the wall, I'd go back to that. Not a big fan of Hubbell's. Braid isn't great but less impactful then above
Edits: 12/08/16 12/08/16
It seems to me there is a possible issue of the magnetic fields being affected by a tri-braided cable run within a ferrous steel conduit, or the wire itself might be sub par, such as using THHN wire for the application which is terrible sounding, IME. This is not from an EE expert based POV, since my audiophile experience is limited to what I've gathered from a subjective POV over the years.
Perhaps the most important information that needs to be found-out is why the installer chose to use an unconventional wiring method. If the reason is based on a far-reaching desire to provide what sounds best to his ear from an anecdotal POV, I see no reason not to recommend that a more conventional in-wall AC wiring method be implemented for audiophile purposes as a rational attempt at a solution. It's a no-brainer option IMO, since there is no risk of ultimate failure based on the prevailing wisdom of using Romex or another audiophile-approved in-wall AC cable vs. a tri-braided "mystery cable".
The bottom line is, if there is no other reason discovered for unsatisfactory audio performance other than the AC delivery at the wall, try to fix it with what's known to work properly, IMO.
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