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These speakers have a built in amp for the sub. There is little room to accept the bulbous plugs from audiophile upgrade cords. Does anyone know if the 5A's will benefit from an upgraded cord, and has anyone knowledge of a cord that will fit between the cooling fins of the amp. Richard V doesn't think there is value to an upgraded cord...they change the sound but not necessarily for the better (so he says)
Follow Ups:
...in my '5As but did it a different way. Being a firm believer that no connector is as good as NO connector, I pulled the amp out, removed the IEC inlet, and installed and hard-wired some DH Labs Power Plus 12g. cable. Since it's driving 'only' bass, I used inexpensive (can't-remember-the-brand) plugs.
I THINK the bass sounded a little better, but I'm no GEA who can recognize tiny differences.
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Tin-eared audiofool, large-scale-Classical music lover, and damned-amateur fotografer.
William Bruce Cameron: "...not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
And your power cord.
Which flavor of Neotech cable did you use?
Have you upgraded the parts in the M5-HP xover?
I'm using the Bob Crump Asylum PC. After putting heat shrink over the Schurter IEC, the plug fit VERY snugly in the back of my Quatros.
I was very pleased with the improvement over the stock PC.
Cheers,
W
.just got an E-mail ....the cables are coming today
...and boy am I pissed off. The damned IEC connector is just too damned big. I removed the connectors and brought them to the garbage can....too damned big.
...so I got the Cardas connectors fitted and wired. I had to sand down the right side of the plug. I removed the shrouding, and removed the wire attachment clips (didn't want the dirt from the sandpaper getting on it..... and with coarse sandpaper, I removed a few mm of plastic. (about 40 minutes of sanding). I then reinstalled the connecting clips, attached the Neotech cable, used heavy tape to eliminate a shock hazard, held my breath, and plugged it into the wall. SUCCESS..... What is interesting to me is that the Vandersteen amp just drives the sub section, yet, the whole speaker cleaned up. More air, faster percussion, clarity of voices,....much better. Although its a pain, I would recommend any Vandersteen owners to upgrade their power cords. Certainly worth it.
I'd never buy a speaker with a built-in amp in the first place.
But considering your question, I'd look to get a Jena Labs line conditioner on each of those speakers as they come with their own built-in small power cables.
But then again, since you probably don't have any line conditioners on your primary gear, I'd just stick with the stock power cables you received with the speakers. Otherwise, you risk the the potential of the deep bass sounding disjointed from the mid-bass.
Stehno....I don't understand your concern. Firstly..no, I don't have a line conditioner. All Ayre equipment has a built in circuit they call Ayre Conditioning, which negates the need for a seperate conditioner. I've tried a number of the highly regarded ones, and although they change the sound, they bring nothing good to the party. I've always removed them for better sound. Vandersteen uses my amp to power from low mids up, and its built in amp to power the woofer, although the rate the woofer and the rest of the sound operates is controlled by a seperate box which is adjustable to my amp. There is also seperate adjustments centering around various frequencies, so that the woofer is fully and properly integrated with the rest of the speaker. A recorded series of tones and a sound pressure meter is used in the setup (also a laser, but that is another setup activity) The Vandersteen website provides interesting reading.
Yes, I've somewhat familiar with the "Ayre Conditioners" as they been deploying these in their components for about the past 15 years.
I thought they stopped using these things. But as I recall their ads used to state how Ayre strategically would place an Ayre Conditioner at certain offending frequencies throughout much of the spectrum.
I've never researched exactly what they do, but I have to assume they simply suppress those offending frequencies and in so doing, they also suppress the music in those same regions. In other words, they most likely are not real line conditioners but are simply filters to filter out certain frequencies in the audio spectrum.
You say you've tried other highly regarded line conditioners, but they brought nothing to the party.
There's a couple of things to mention about this:
1. Most line conditioners simply are not worth owning. They either do nothing or they induce their own sonic harm.
2. Doubling up any two types of line conditioning always or most always results in worse sound. Not sure why but it's true. I think back about 10 years ago when I owned a $10k preamp that included with it a cheap $5 AC filter inside the chassis right behind the IEC inlet. It was no better sounding than my previous preamps when I had my fabulous Foundation Research line conditioner attached it, as I did and do with all my components. When I plugged the preamp directly into the wall without a line conditioner, its sonics improved slightly. Soon thereafter, I opened the chassis and removed the $5 AC filter and using house wire connected the IEC connector straight to the power supply. Then the preamp came alive with a greater level of musicality. And far better than what the silly $5 AC filter could ever do.
This is no slight against Ayre, but I suspect they hedge their bets that since 99% of all enthusiasts don't partake in line conditioning and especially not in proper or superior line conditioning, their Ayre Conditioners give their products just a little performance edge in this regard.
Of course this leads me to believe that Charles Hanson of Ayre doesn't use superior line conditioning either.
Nevertheless, it is regrettable that mfg'erer never tells the consumer that their little $5 AC filter (or Ayre Conditioners) will defeat the musicality of even superior line conditioners, Maybe they know and maybe they don't know.
But what happens is somebody like yourself comes along and using Ayre's otherwise fine products and when you decide to try even the industry's best line conditioners and get funky results, you have every right to believe the funky sound is coming from the line conditioner and not the cheap $5 AC filter. Why, because when you take the line conditioner back out the funky sound ceases.
But then what happens is that now you, who seems to have a good head on your shoulders, tell others that you've tried numerous types of line conditioners and they didn't work, or didn't work well, ..... well, now the cat's out of the bag that all line conditioners are worthless,. My friend's friend's brother has a really nice well-thought-out playback system and he says line conditioners don't work.
After nearly 20 years, Foundation Research, which has always been at the top of the line conditioner heap, closed their doors a few years ago for this very reason.
As for me I wouldn't own any component that makes a lazy attempt to address proper line conditioning or AC filtering because I know the real benefits of superior line conditioning and these component mfg'ers don't.
As for the Vandersteen's, 12 or 13 years ago, i knew several who owned them and as I recall it was a bit of cabling nightmare with the external crossovers or DSP-like box. As I recall they needed multiple sets of cables, from the amp to that box, from that box to the speaker. But I do like their aesthetic design.
My main reason for my comment about not owning an active speaker is because I already know the very serious harm under-controlled vibrations do to an amplifier when it's sitting in a rack. There's simply no hope for properly controlling an amplifier placed inside a speaker cabinet. That's not even being at the epicenter of an earthquake, that is the earthquake.
And I don't mean to rag on either Ayre or Vandersteen as both generally make very fine cost-effective products that have a certain pride of ownership. But what most don't realize is that their very designs that give them just a tiny edge over competing products are in the end sometimes their products' greatest performance-limiting governors.
So I attempt to stay with the simple products myself that allow me to decide how best to apply superior AC management and superior vibration management.
For example, last year at this time I replaced my 2-componet system that retailed for $17k with a source and amps that retailed for $4k. Both of which easily outperform their predecessors.
But behind these 2 components retailing for $4k, is $14k worth of superior AC mgmt and superior vibration mgmt both of which make all the difference in the world and both of which I call laying a proper foundation.
Stehno....an interesting post. We all try to find what we believe is the gratus ad parnassum. I am a violinist and am constantly searching for the very best rosin/string/combination that could bring the finer edge to my sound making from my instrument. What I hear under my ear is different than what the patrons in the 3rd row hear.....we all try the best and live with it until the "best" as we experience it and understand it is bettered and we move on or not to our own satisfaction.
Absolutely. And I apologize for being a bit more forthcoming than you asked. But as you can see there often times is more than meets the naked eye.Moving on to your original question about upgraded cables.
It's good to know that you are skeptical of Vandersteen's take on power cables. Too often we believe that because a mfg'er is an expert at making a certain product, he must be an expert at everything he says or makes. There's plenty of examples but just one example is the mtg'er/designer of my fabulous line conditioners. The power cords are fixed and I'd been told by somebody who knows the designer well that he does not believe in the burn-in process. That's nearly impossible for me to believe that somebody so talented in one area, actually several because also supposedly made fabulous preamps and amps but I've never hear them.
Moving on. do you know for a fact that other IEC connectors won't fit or are you just speculating? To the best of my knowledge nearly every IEC connector on the market should fit the standard-sized IEC inlet at the amp.
I've owned power cables upwards of $2500 and in one recent audio show a distributor asked that I try his $6000 PC. I did, but I didn't have the heart to tell him his $6k PC was no better than my custom $100 DIY power cable that included cryo-treated wiring, and Furutech plug and IEC connector. BTW, supposedly everything Furutech makes is cryo-treated.
In fact, I sold my $2500 PC and kept my $100 DIY PC.
As you know, there are many aftermarket PC's available but in my limited experience, they generally don't make near as much of an improvement as many lead us to believe. But my experience is limited.
There's several ways to go about getting the most out of power cables.
1. Spend $300 - $10,000 per cable.
2. Buy the parts yourself and built your own for $100 - maybe $500.
3. Take whatever cables you currently own and send them to Jena Labs where they will cryo-treat them via the superior full-immersion method at a cost of say $150 - $300 total. But you could be without cables for 2 weeks or more.
In my limited experience, cryo-treating cables is the great equalizer and last year when I hosted an event that included Jena Labs being present, during the Q&A time, I asked Mike Crock a question about this subject matter and he agreed that the normally inferior uncryo-ed cable should sound better than far more expensive cable that was cryo'ed.
That said, there is a 4th option.
4. Purchase some inexpensive but reasonable quality-oriented power cables that are marked as Hospital grade or audio grade for about $40 each. I'd buy one for every component and active speaker. Then send those in to Jena Labs.
Ok, one more.
5. Cryo-parts.com sells some hospital grade power cables that are already cryo-treated for about $35 each. I'm not sure if they use the inferior vapor cryo'ing method or the superior full-immersion cryo'ing method that Jena Labs uses. The difference between the two methods is quite audible.
But I say yes about an aftermarket power cable's potential for improved performance. If for example when upgrading some component and I say it seems to be about a 5% improvement in overall musicality, that subjective 5% implies to me that the improvement is barely audible. For my best power cable upgrade, I'd venture about 6 or 7% at most. Whereas, with superior line conditioning I'd use a number around 30 or 35% or more.
In my experience, $30 - $500 is about as much as I'd be willing to invest in upgrading a single power cable from standard one. Especially when cryo-treating is rather inexpensive.
Edits: 05/09/15
...by the way....I know a couple of pro trumpet players and a sax guy who cryo'd their instruments and swear their instrument is MUCH better...
no doubt that cryo can be an advantage- but, is it permanent?
Yes...I built my own power cords (Furutech (forgot the model, but top of the line carbon fiber/chrome beautiful) plugs/Accrolink wire). I used to own a company that made cable and resonance control devices. By the way, in that endeavor, I discovered that soldering ruins the good sound of cables. Ours were crimped solidly. ..and too, I discovered that the plugs make a huge difference in the cable...not so much the wire itself) (Too much work for too little reward). I agree that the amps in the speakers (and crossover as well) be freed from the vibrations therein and spiked to the floor..even in another room...however, that's what I have.
Edits: 05/10/15
Interesting. What was your company name?
Why not buy the parts and built your own power cables?
Shunyata sells an adapter (male IEC to female IEC)for under 50.00. It is made to fit in very tight spaces. Then you can add the flavor of the month power cord to it.
Regarding if you can hear a difference, I have Golden Ear Triton Ones in my system. They came with cheap computer grade cords. I replaced them with 2 Shunyata Venom (original ones) power cords bought used for 75.00 each. Wow, what a difference it made on bass impact and articulation.
"Far away across the field
The tolling of the iron bell
Calls the faithful to their knees
To hear the softly spoken magic spells."
Thanks 5, but in my audio travels, adapters always degrade the sound. I just ordered Cardas connectors and will use Neotech cable...(the diameter will fit the Cardas nicely.) Lots of research went into this....I'll post when it all comes together.
Interesting query- keep me posted as you decide on this project.
I switched to some older Elrod Signature PC's to feed the subwoofer amps, and I was quite surprised by the improvements they wrought. I was expecting more bass "grip" and texture, which I got and appreciated, but the speakers' sound definitely improved well up into the midrange, which I was not expecting at all. Toggled the cord difference a few times, and there was no doubt that I liked the aftermarket PC's much better. I'd bet pretty good money that this would work at least as much magic for some 5's as it did for my Quatro's.
To get them working with the cooling fin restrictions on the back plate of the speakers, I used some Voodoo Cables IEC extenders that just fit in the space and provide ~3.5" of extension. I have seen a couple of 5 owners that actually "Dremel'd" away some of the fins to allow for complete access to the IEC's and I almost did the same, but.....never got the guts to do so, and I just recently sold the Quatro's after switching to a different speaker.
Thanks! for sharing- JB.
I just discovered that Cardas is making a new clamshell type of female connector which is small and looks exactly the same as the one being used in the new Shunyata E series power cords...the Cardas part is 3455R. I contacted Cardas to find out what size cable the part will accept....in which case I'm thinking of using Acrolink wire with Oyeida or Furutech male plugs. ..and the quest continues.
Opps ...was wrong. The compact IEC connector on Shunyata is Shurter....I suspect Cardas is better ....silver over Rhodium. (or the other way)
Keep me posted...
Thanks JB
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