|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
85.19.92.6
Hi to Everyone,
Let's say you have a very good ICs pair you like and another one average quality
Where do you put the good pair ... between the cd and the preamp or after the preamp ? Is there a common rule to follow in order to preserve as much as possible the qualities of the good IC ?
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg
Follow Ups:
Synergy is determined by the entire signal chain, including how the I/O of particular components behave with particular cables, so it's best to swap-out different make/model interconnect cables regardless of their pedigree until the best sounding presentation is achieved via a particular configuration. Trying to be logical or follow anecdotal rules about the situation won't make synergy any easier to determine. YMMV
"Synergy is determined by the entire signal chain, including how the I/O of particular components behave with particular cables, so it's best to swap-out different make/model interconnect cables..."
Pragmatically I just don't really see another viable choice for home audio, especially for users who are not especially electronically inclined and equipped. Being one of the latter I can prolly chase down cable and port characteristics, in and out of band, much further than most which actually can be useful. Sometimes. But the singular "final test" is: Do I like it?
If I were working for a manufacturer of this stuff or a standards agency then that would be an entirely different matter. But as the sole fussy listener in the house...
Rick
Hi mr. Duster and thank you very much again.
I understand the issue of synergy between components and the need to try different combinations.
But recently i have read things that made me wonder about the approach used in hifi.
First the type of connector.
While i understand that RCA connectors, male and female, come with very different build quality, i have never listened to such a debate for XLRs.
Maybe the pros are less picky about the quality of connectors ?
I do not think so. I would call this superior design.
Of course the quality of WBT, Cardas, Neutrik connectors are excellent
But what we can say about the average quality of RCAs on equipment ?
I have very bad personal experience ... very bad.
And actually i am thinking to mod an old preamp putting at least two couples of very good female RCAs and listen for improvement.Then i see a very high end brand, Dartzeel, proposing bncs also for analog, explaining on a scientific basis the sanity of the choice.
Are they right ? if so i would expect a switch to bnc from all major manufacturers.
They can be made at much cheaper price than a very good RCA on the basis of a superior design. It is the design that matters.
If the design is bad than we can use the best materials ... but still the result cannot be good.
I mean, signal transfer is a very delicate task.
It seems to me that is has been overlooked quite a lot.
And spectacular solution already are off the shelf. And still they remain on the shelf.
Sorry for the outburst but i am a bnc supporter.
And Dartzeel have confirmed my feeling.
And they used a good cable in between, but nothing fancy i mean.
And it works. That is the important part.
Thanks a lot for the kind advice.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 06/30/14 06/30/14
NT
People will say that theoretically, the best should go upstream. But I have found that it depends on what I believe to be the driving capability and other unknowns of the upstream source. I have gotten better sound sometimes by not putting my "best" out of the source. I arrange for best sound.
At times I have also put my best where all music goes through, so that I can always benefit from it. For example out of the the pre-amp rather than only on the output of the DAC or phono preamp.
what most people and manufacturers will tell you.
ET
.
There seems to be logical hierarchy to apply. In a chain of components (including, cables) you cannot replace at any stage what has been lost in the stage preceding. Each stage of the chain should seek to preserve the audio signal before it is presented to the ensuing stage.Therefore the better IC should precede the less good one i.e be closer to the source.
If you do it round the other way all that the very good IC can do is preserve the sound of the less good one.
This is on the assumption that no unusual electrical considerations are involved e.g. trying to combine components with high output impedences with cables having unusually high characteristic impedences.
Edits: 06/29/14
Hi and thanks for the valuable reply
I wonder if the principle " the better IC should precede the less good one i.e be closer to the source " can be useful to share the budget between IC and speaker cables, with the ICs more important than speaker cables for the final result
Thanks again
Kind regards,
bg
I think that could be said of any component in a system. Information lost can never be regained so the earlier a component is in the chain the more important IME. Sources are more critical to the overall sound than amplification or speakers, ceteris paribus. The same hold with cables of either sort so for me IC's trump speaker cables but each is important in the context of a "system."
By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.
Galileo Galilei
Edits: 07/02/14
Hi and thanks for the reply
I have thing about it and for better cable i should have used a cable with a sound i like more
So i think that to have the hope to keep the type of sound for all the chain it would be better to place it after the source and maybe it will impose its sound on the chain ? could it be like this ?
Anyway i believe in cable sound ... they are really different
Kind regards,
bg
Yes, I'm a beauty/emotions before accuracy listener and I agree that you should pick a cable whose sound you like best and that should be between the source(s) and input. I also think that cables should be from the same manufacturer in most cases but you may get too much of the house sound that way so match carefully. In my case almost all of my signal cables are AudioQuest except the tonearm cable which is a Zu model (AQ weren't flexible enough to allow the Linn to float properly.) Power cables are also Zu.
By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.
Galileo Galilei
Hi and thanks again
I will stick to the advice " you should pick a cable whose sound you like best and that should be between the source(s) and input " that makes me a lot of sense ... if the damage is upstream than the damage is just amplified down stream ... what is lost is lost
Issue closed ... i know better know how to act
Thanks again
Kind regards,
bg
Yes, I think that is the case. It has been my experience as well as regarding any theoretical or logical consideration.Regards
Pete
Edits: 06/29/14
Hi and thanks again.
I have understood the cables hierarchy better
This of cables is really a nightmare
Unbelievably high prices ... break-in ... connectors
I think that this shows a lack of design for the unbalanced connections especially
I see that at Dartzeel they have a predilection for BNC connectors also for analog duties
A connector widely used in the lab instruments ... so it must be very good
And not very expensive at all.
Kind regards,
bg
Yes a nightmare. At least in other areas of audio there is often (not always) some kind of vague relationship between price and performance or technology and performance. Not so with cables where suck it and see is ulthimately all that you can do. OK I have never heard cheap cables that perform as well as (reasonably) expensive ones but that is comparing extremes.All made even worse by the inumerable manufacturers and product lines. I often imagine that there is a 1:1 ratio between the number of customers and the number of cable manufacturers;-)
What a shame that the wrong choice of cable can stultify an otherwise good audio system. Yet still nobody really seems to know why despite the amount of hokum offered in many quarters.
Edits: 06/30/14
Hi and i thanks again.
I think that another importan issue is the quality of connectors
With the optimum solution of having female and male rca coming from the same brand. Tolerances are quite large
For this i am thinking to use more and more XLR balanced connections, because the average quality is superior to RCAs
It has been designed for professional uses, and it shows.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg
I think that you are making an assumption that few of the very experienced inmates here would necessarily go along with. It's now very late here in the UK so I will expand further tomorrow.
Regards
Pete
Hi i am +1h before you
But seriously ... if i had a preamp at least that i like very much i would try to put some very nice RCAs because the average quality is evidently very very poor ... and i think i can listen it
XLR instead from Neutrik are perfect and quite cheap.
Also dirt i have listened ... after cleaning much better sound.
Very much actually.
I have found chemical detergent spectacular for this purpose, even if slightly toxic ...
Kind regards,
bg
If you are liking what you are hearing then that's great. All I wanted to say is that although XLRs provide a robust connection this does not guarantee the best sound compared to RCA connectors between the same pieces of ovequipment. You should always try both before finally deciding.
There are good reasons for this ranging from the degree of success in the implementation of the balanced circuitry ( assuming that the XLRs are used in such a configuration) to the generation of eddy currents in the metal parts of the XLR plug and housing compared to some RCAs such as WBT new generation.
Just be careful with that toxic cleaner :-)
Hi and thanks again for your kind and valuable advice.
XLR connections are very popular on top of the line equipment, especially solid state.
I am so ignorant that i did not even know that the body is grounded, thing that i do not like of course.
I see three pins and maybe a body of hard plastic could prevent this eddy currents ?
But there is no reason to argue.
They have decided for a lesser design to differentiate and make necessary to spend big money on better connectors.
If a 0.5$ well designed connector would do all the job perfectly together with a let's say 10 $ cable ... well you understand that the game stops immediately.
And they do not want this.
And RCAs are perfectly suitable for this.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 07/01/14
"Not so with cables where suck it and see is ulthimately all that you can do."
Just like the rest of the components, huh?
The electrical interfaces of home audio gear are essentially undefined.
The emissions and susceptibilities of home audio gear are essentially undefined.
The minimum performance criteria for home audio gear are essentially undefined.
The tastes and preferences of individual users of home audio gear are undefined.
With that tight of system control it's hard to see what could go wrong, maybe users are just too fussy...
Regards, Rick
Thanks Rick. All too true and wittily expressed :-)
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: