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I got reamed out a while back for posting contrary comments on this particular forum. I just read a post where the OP was wondering if replacing the cord on a conditioner would benefit the sound of his system. Since you can't post anything contrary, all the OP is going to hear are positive comments. What good is this?
What would happen if someone with an advanced degree in EE posted results of DBTs to the contrary? Would he get the boot? Just wonderin'.
Follow Ups:
Legitimate double blind tests require that subjects be trained to hear specific artifacts. This is because our hearing ranges over a huge dynamic range like a long fast telephoto lens with a very short depth of field. Appropriate training is virtually impossible with cables and connectors which means one will almost always get a random result that is utterly meaningless in spite of sounding "scientific."
Great point Bob! I still don't quite understand the deep seated need that people have to be spoon fed experiences that they could evaluate for themselves. Especially cables, which are readily available for evaluation from multiple sources. No one can hear what you hear...it's just a fact of life:O)
dave_b
"I still don't quite understand the deep seated need that people have to be spoon fed experiences that they could evaluate for themselves."
Spoken as an unsolicited feeder? That could be an impediment to understanding.
Both have enforced controls on the nature of posts. This isn't to close your eyes to the other side of the debate. It's to prevent thread crapping.
I don't think every "Is Wireworld or Cardas better for my system?" type thread is enhanced by a 500 post spirited attack and equally spirited defence of whether cables have any effect. Similarly, a discussion about the transparency of LAME is rarely helped by a constant barrage of "I don't care, I believe CD just sounds better".
Let's look at it another way. Richard Dawkins might dream of kicking down the door to a Sunday School and liberating all those kids from the evils of religion, just as Ken Ham might have dreams of bursting into a high-school biology class and liberating all those kids from the evils of evolution. But in reality if either actually did this unannouced, they'd both be unlikely to liberate anyone from anything, and both would come close to being branded a terrorist.
If you are ideologically convinced you are right and others are wrong, the chances are the others are just as ideologically convinced you are wrong and they are right. Under such circumstances, who's actually 'right' or 'wrong' is immaterial.
Some interesting posts. Cable discussion can be a polarizing topic: on one hand you have Vanderkooy and Lipschitz and their disciples who maintain there are no differences in sound and can explain why, and then there is the wide-eyed junior high kid that hears major differences. A previous poster made note of the latter - the guy who says "kicks it to the curb", "blows that cable out of the water" and so on. Is the truth somewhere in between?
If you don't hear differences, is it because you don't want to? Maybe your background is scientific and your training won't "allow" you to hear differences. Are you generally open-minded and don't care how or why a cable can sound different? Quite often a person's personality and/or training will go a long way in determining where he sits on this debate. I think I am stating the obvious here.
I had an e-mail exchange between an electrostatic speaker maker who also offers cables. He said that all well designed and constructed cables will sound the same; it's the poorly designed cables that will sound different. When I asked him why he charges so much for his speaker cables - they are off-the-shelf Mogami - he stated that he couldn't sell them when they were cheaper. When he jacked up the price by $200, they started to sell! More street cred in the high end community when priced high.
.
Just can't let it go 'ay Jerry? The mystery is as much in the component interfaces etc... and when I say etc... I mean EVERY OTHER POSSIBLE VARIABLE!! It all matters and some times one may find a satisfactory result which happens to be economical and pedestrian in nature. In other cases, the dynamics of the system and the variables may dictate a more expensive solution. Don't take it personal Mango....just let it go and realize that you ain't no genius and there ain't no one answer that fits all. YOU HAVE TO TRY BEFORE YOU BUY....and keep your selections within YOUR OWN BUDGET!! End of story bro:O)
dave_b
Ain't no genius? Why so hostile? I don't know you, not have I ever derided you.
You talk about synergy; this is what I've saying in a round- about way. If a cable doesn't work, there's a reason. Now, if the poster discloses the conditions in which he used the cable, then it puts it all into context. Maybe he used a 20' long Goertz cable which rolled off the highs somewhat in his system. Maybe his speakers have hot tweeters and the cable worked perfectly. The next guy reads the post and figures 'I think I'll try it' only to discover that it robs his system of a little sparkle. If the first guy stated the conditions (and his mission) then the next guy may have balked at buying these cables. And he learned something along the way.
It was meant in jest... none of us have it nailed down, because it's a moving target seasoned with subjectivity out the wazoo:O) You seem to enjoy stating the obvious! We get it, so go home and play with your toy trains or something.
dave_b
I am a genius. A toy-trainless genius. So there. Just sezzin.....
Nice! Here's som'n to drive Mango nuts...I bought some new cables worth almost $10K. MIT Matrix HD60 Biwires and HD28 IC's. I'm not gonna tell him why I like them or nothin....but they are the best, and don't I deserve the best:O)
dave_b
worth $10k? just wondering, is that what you paid for them or then what is the fractional value/sale price?
It may seem like a ponyed question?.....
I have a dealer who works with me... been buying from him for over 12 years now:O) You know the deal, if you had to sell them they would be worth half:O( But I like what they do for my system so......!!!
dave_b
Not sure are you addressing me Elizabeth. I'm actually a great believer in quality cables, commensurate with the investment in other equipment. I imagine the $6000 MIT speaker cables would compliment a $10K amp and $15K speakers nicely and Dave has one hell of a system.
I'm not elizabeth? But if the compliment is directed towards me...thanks!
dave_b
Bored Ass, I have to take a back seat to your clever, insidious psychological warfare. Not listing your observations in the context of cable upgrading would absolutely devastate me - to the point where I would wonder if the cable would "add more pixels to every instrument and every note and notes harmonic structure including overtones; and if the music would bubble over with color and dead on accurate tonality". All this with the addition of a tube buffer between solid state components?
I'm speechless.
That's the spirit Mango Jury. And I thought you were hard of hearing. Have you been sneaking in my house when I'm not home? I knew I turned the stereo off the other weekend...damn! Well, at least you saved me the drudgery of having to describe the sound of my system with the MIT's in place. You should have waited till they were fully broken in however! Oh, that's right, you probably don't believe in breakin either:O( Bored ass over and out:O)
dave_b
The reason why DBT discussions and audiophile cable naysaying is not allowed in Cable Asylum (anymore) is that folks who opposed the notion of audiophile cables (and who tended to denigrate audiophile cable advocates as being delusional "believers") turned this forum into an attack ridden flame war battleground, with little accomplished other than unresolvable intellectual contention and bitterness. Find an audio forum that allows cable bashing and have your say. Otherwise, folks who visit Cable Asylum don't need to be saved from themselves, nor from audiophile cable advocates who might try to be of help to those who seek audiophile advice within a friendly atmosphere.
Dusty, I am not interested in a war, nor did I ever say that differences in power cords don't exist. I just wish people would post how they came to their conclusions. If I say cable A blows the doors off cable B when someone asks me for a recommendation, don't you think I should mention how I came to the conclusion? And possibly why?
First of all, anyone who says anything blows the doors off of anything else, be it cables, amps, speakers, etc. should be immediately dismissed. I know anytime I read one of those junior high remarks such as "ABC just smoked my old XYZ", I immediately know it was written by someone with almost no experience and/or someone with an alterior motive (sales).
Second, I do agree with you that anytime someone makes a suggestion, again be it cables or gear, they should do their best to share their system and musical bias'. As someone who has been reading audio liturature (threads, mags, blogs) for several decades, I can usually sniff it out and decide whether the recommendation would help me or not. A newbie may not be able to read through the haze though. Not that people mis-lead others on purpose, but most don't understand synergy very well. IMHO, system building is all about synergy. For example, with the proper associated equipment, I can make just about any cable, amp, speaker, etc. sound very good. It's not a matter of what is the best cable or amp, it's a matter of what will sound best to me, in my system.
Sometimes, if I know what direction the person wants to go in, I may recommend stuff that did not work for me, but they may be travelling in a different direction than I am. There are many, many paths that lead to sonic nirvana and most of us arrive there by traveling different paths.
So knowing ones path when making a recommendation should add more weight than just a blank reco, I would think. At least for me it would.
Look how being contrarian wears folks down. How nice to observe friends playing together.
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
Nice reply. I think it sums up a great deal of things.
Cheers, Duster
For starters I dare say anyone caring in investigate would quickly discover an example of how things are not always positive and rosy where we are concerned, yet on extra-audio/sonic matters I would maintain (for want of a better way to put it).But as to audio and the cable (and related) realm it is quite clear that your curiosity and willingness to exert effort to investigate and experiment is clearly a grade above. Yet I've not witnessed you *ever* getting on a high pedestal to trumpet your virtues or belittle others.
Moreover you are more than willing to share your accumulated knowledge and do so in a measured and contained manner. Even when you discover a promising product that is by any standard inexpensive you discuss it with the same sort of mannered moderation evident when discussing considerably more dear stuff.
If anything I think it a great shame that someone such as yourself does not have unlimited access to audio components in general, for I would expect you'd experiment with the lot and provide benefit to all comers, be they owners of modest or the most exotic/expensive gear.
So take take a compliment from a guy whom you no doubt think is only interested in sniping at you, a mistaken assumption, but then when it comes to the extra-audio stuff that's where I think you sometimes go astray ... but now I've said too much.
--
That said should you decline (the compliment), no problem, I'm not the type to curry favor so it's not terribly important to me one way or the other.
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
Edits: 05/10/12
Someone has stolen bjh's identity.
Thanks for the kind words!
Cheers, Duster
Most welcome.
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
"The BEST you can do in that price range is look for a Forte 4a. They don't come up often and are sold quickly, so you have to move quickly. 50 wpc of Class A power. This little sweetie will embarass many multi-thousand dollar amps today. I think the Forte 6 is 150 wpc, but it's not Class A power"
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
nt
There is no doubt that offering detailed information about a personal recommendation can be of great help to readers, but since some posters don't always immediately jump into deep details about such things, the solution is that readers choose to ask pertinent questions rather than to expect things of interest be explained by a poster right off the bat. Furthermore, the OP originally complained about specific forum rules which have been clearly explained, while general complaints about the lackadaisical attitude of some posters can be at best considered a pet peeve regarding human nature (I have a few pet peeves of my own). my 2 cents
That's a big problem on most of these threads, mis-communication. Many people come here (or any other forum) looking for advice, but they don't know how to ask pertinent questions. Many don't even really know what they are looking for or which direction they want to go. They are totally lost. There's not much you can do for these folks, they usually just need to figure it out on their own.
There should be no requirement that posters must disclose some sort of credibility test pertaining to any details about their evaluations. Questions may be asked of a poster in the spirit of the forum, but if folks are looking for some sort of proof of objectivity in these matters, it's not obtainable nor a productive thing to argue about in Cable Asylum.
BTW, my nym is Duster (not Dusty).
Of course you needn't disclose how you ascertained your conclusions - it would sure help, especially for the neophytes in the crowd.
Cable discussion is a very contentious, controversial topic. People should not take it lightly.
That's the spirit! Be friendly and ask questions. As some folks say, "There are no dumb questions, only dumb answers".
Cheers, Duster
Duster, whether we agree or not, you are a cool guy in my book.
"...if replacing the cord on a conditioner would benefit the sound of his system."
If not beneficial, why are many of them detachable?
"What would happen if someone with an advanced degree in EE posted results of DBTs to the contrary? Would he get the boot? Just wonderin'."
Yes, infamous contrarians have been booted.
... as long as you follow the rules that we have developed.
See:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/d.mpl?audio/dbt.html
re DBT postings.
Then there is the Cable Asylum Mission Statement at:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/d.mpl?audio/cables.html
RE the "someone with an advanced degree in EE posted results of DBTs to the contrary", yes, the post would either be be deleted, or at the least, moved to Prop Head Plaza see:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/bbs.html
For a comment on your above supposition, I have started a thread there.
It also requires that one be a registered inmate, and has rules of conduct to observe (as do all of the Asylum wards).
RE no one being able to post comments on whether or not a power cord change would affect a power conditioner, and not being able to post anything but positive comments, it depends on what you call a positive comment. The basic idea is that folks who have actually tried changing out power cords, and that have tried several different brands, and have tried them on power conditioners, would post their observations on the matter.
Some of those comments might talk about how a power cord change made things sound worse than the stock cord, others might talk about how the power conditioner seemed to render less noticeable the effects of the different cords, etc. These kind of comments could be construed as being "negative", yet they would fall under the purview of this forum, and not be considered a problem.
Moderator,
Jon Risch
the OP got to post his negative views thru the back door of starting a thread asking about whats acceptable or not. very slick. the troll-y posts got the forum mis-directed.
oh well. this sh*t happens.
-andre d
.
Especially when the geniuses further down the thread help by patting themselves on the back for attacking something they don't recognize. If they simply look up, they might notice conversational nances and subtleties flying by. High school doesn't prepare folks for the interpersonal world any more.
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
I don't claim that all cables sound the same; I question the methodology used to support claims to the contrary. I once put together a pair of pair of nondescript IC's with low cost RCA's and in the process, totally butchered the soldering. I used them for a while and switched over to a beautifully made pair of silver IC's with upscale RCA's. The only difference I heard was a bit of sibilance in the silver pair. Before someone starts screaming "Your system wasn't resolving enough to hear the difference!", I was using Quad ESL57's with Quicksilver tube amps.
What I didn't do was post my findings anywhere, because it's pointless. I didn't do rigorous DBT's, nor have my head within mm of the same position each time I listened. Therefore, any observations would have been totally subjective and worse, misleading. So when I read a post that describes the difference he hears between cables that are night and day, I look for methodology used - to help put the observations in some sort of context. 99 times out of 100, there is none.
"better" and "best" are objective terms and "methodology" is subjective and therefore unable to be substantiated. All aftermarket cables fall into the former and need not be burdened by the latter.
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
Say what mt104257620xyz? Better and Best are objective? Since when? You guys need a drink and some female companionship....WOW!
dave_b
Prone to generalization aren't you.
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
If by generalization you mean I think some people have their craniums up their posteriors, then yes, yes I do! This isn't rocket science...ya hook up a cable and listen, then decide if you like it. Reviewers and obsessive compulsive megalomaniacs are not needed. Now if it's my questioning of whether or not something is the best, now that's something entirely different. The "Best" is a moving target and subject to ones perspective and relative experience regarding a given product and it's efficacy...hence, it is subjective. Methodologies vary but are individually structured and fairly rigid in their protocol....repeatable if you will. This then dictates a requisite "objectivity" to any given Methodology per se. A cable may be, objectively made of better materials, but they are irrelevant to the end user if they do not enhance his or her enjoyment! Maybe this is a little more specific?
dave_b
You can have a methodology that is very strict, perfectly repeatable, and perfectly useless --- in fact it has been my experience, gained from discussions on more appropriate forums, that such are actually preferred by "some people [that] have their craniums up their posteriors".
But like I said, there are more appropriate forums.
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
Some of you have predictably gone into attack mode. I am not disputing differences in cables; I think it would be helpful to know how these differences were ascertained.
Were the cables the same length, were the same connectors used, were they both soldered or crimped, were L-C-R characteristics noted, were the components warmed up to the same degree, and was the listener in the exact same location each listening session. This is absolutely paramount or comparisons are useless.
If I drank a beer that was dearly beloved by the community and declared it vile, my taste in quality beer would be questioned. If I divulged that I had just brushed my teeth prior to drinking, then my observation would have some sort of context. Context is crucial.
Sorry for the slam mungo jerry, but the basic point is that when you are dealing with complex dynamic systems, which audio setups inherently are, then you must realize and understand, that what you are grappling with is "Quantum" by nature. Understanding and predicting results are a moving target! Just when you think you have a handle on it, the results will change due to an almost infinite amount of variables. The ONLY way to be sure is to simply try before you buy.....it is Audio Alchemy.
dave_b
Edits: 05/09/12
I simply pointed out the discussion of methodology was simplistic and you react with an accusation it being an attack.Perhaps you're discussing these matters here because you don't fare so well in other forums and assume this to be an easier crowd? I really don't know but the combination of what appears to be a sense of superiority combined with tendency to easily take offence is rather comical.
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
Edits: 05/09/12
bjh, I merely said some go into attack mode; I didn't specifically say you.
"If I drank a beer that was dearly beloved by the community and declared it vile, my taste in quality beer would be questioned. If I divulged that I had just brushed my teeth prior to drinking, then my observation would have some sort of context. Context is crucial."
Frankly, some folks will consider the source despite context. :^)
it is amazing it escapes so many. Perhaps it should be added to the mission statement. Though I don't have a problem with reviewers unless of course I get panned ;-)
Well said.
Thanks:O)
dave_b
"Better and best" I believe are subjective and methodology objective. You have it backwards I think. Methodology can be substantiated.
I don't know Mungo Jerry, but I can see how he would be extremely annoying. Once in awhile you come across someone who feels like they have a handle on everything regarding a certain topic and everyone else is misguided. This quite frequently indicates a mental imbalance of some sort. Oops, does this comment fall under the "negative" banner of conduct? Sorry:O)
dave_b
the glow wore off?
Get used to it.
We all know what the problem with naysayers are, and all who like this particular forum agree it is for the best.
The critics contribute nothing except hot air, and just annoy the Hell out of the folks who use the forum. So no problem IMO, with anyone wanting to break the rules here. Out they go. Period.
It IS true a few take advantage of the gullibility of others to sell crap, but in general, one has to assume folks can think, and can make descisions for themselves. And everyone who reads or writes here is totally aware of the naysayers position. No one needs a refresher.
And that is why the ban on that crap. The naysayers have only one point, one agenda, and a million ways to say it. No one wants to read it, over and over. At least here anyway.
The suppression police.
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
then he would clearly be willfully violating the forum policy, the statement is concise and perfectly clear after all.
In any case his posts, including initial post, would be subject for deletion as the statement clearly states (although in practice the moderator here has been known to move posts).
Have you taken opportunity to read the statement?
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
This is a DBT free zone according to the header
Watch your step.
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
If graphs, charts and so on are posted in Propeller Head Plaza, then they won't be seen by those who should see them. Oh, I get it, that's the whole point. Stupid me!
Carry On.
Who do you think YOU are Mungo Jerry? A Supreme Being? That YOU should determine who needs to see what! The audacity, to think that we here NEED YOUR lectures to properly enjoy recorded music. LOL!!
Your whole argument of "how can I force people who don't want to listen to me to listen to me" mentality is just a pathetic cry for help. Truely sad.
You could post on Propeller Head Plaza and post here to see your reply. I think that would be OK.
Dave
I would certainly hope so. That is what Propeller Head Plaza is for. Post all the charts, graphs, and journel material in the proper forums.
nt
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