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The story is always bulls*t. This time she says the wire does not fit her amp..ahh how many times can she sell more of the same PHONEY wire?
I am pretty certain it is counterfit 8TC Kimber. She has sold hundreds of feet of this stuff.
Ray should look into it.
Follow Ups:
To be frank, I'm surprised that Badgirl is still listed as a private seller on her/his profile on Audiogon. Based on the quantities of so many cables she's sold from both Acoustic Zen and Kimber, she sure does appear to be a dealer. I also think she might also be username bbqdrew, who is no longer an Audiogon member. Both share the same zipcode of Alameda, Ca. I'm just speculating, of course. Hmmmmmm...
I lived in Hong Kong for ten years, from 1992-2002, and visited there and Guangdong in the past summer. We do have to be careful about any ethnic stereotypes, which I sometimes see expressed on hi fi forums. With regard to our hobby, there are in my opinion a lot of very good things being made in China now--especially a lot of tubes and tube equipment--preamps, power amps, headphone amps, etc. Though one has to research what is good and what is not, the bargains can be fantastic. Some Chinese cables also look promising, though I have not experimented with them.However, it is true that there are a some counterfeit products being sold. Besides gray market stuff, I can say that some fakes are quite convincing looking. While I was talking to a friend on the street this past summer, my 12 year old son bought from a mobile vendor a pair of fake Monster Beats by Dr. Dre headphones. I don't think the actual Monster phones would be the best for the money, but that's not the issue.... My friend and I thought that the headphones at that price were probably fake, and I wasn't happy about my son wasting the money. Research confirmed that they are indeed imitations. They are being sold everywhere, and Monster has been issuing warnings about them. The fake ones are packed in a fancy box that at first looks identical to the real one, but the cardboard is actually thinner. The differences in appearance of the headphones are quite subtle, but definite, and the phones are simply not the actual Monsters. As everyone warns, the cables also break off easily. The fake set even came with a copy of Monster's magnetic headphone pouch. Anyway, it amazed me that some company made such an elaborate effort to create an imitation version of the item with all its accessories. Kimber Cables are quite popular among audiophiles worldwide, and it would probably be easier to copy those than the headphones.
Anyway, I would some day like to try some of the properly marked Chinese audio cables. Some of the silver ones look interesting, and are relatively inexpensive. One might find an even better deal if one could actually visit the markets.
Edits: 01/15/11 01/15/11 01/15/11
So I went through this whole thread and found no definitive evidence one way or the other. Has anyone actually bought any cable from badgirl to see if it really is genuine?
That name rings a bell.
It used to be upper AQ stuff. IIRC, she -quote/unquote- worked off a blackberry, the ad had a West Cost zip, and the merchandise was shipped in plain bags from the Mid West.
I contacted AQ, they never replied, and I moved on. Very fishy IMO...
'cause if Kimber is having their cable made overseas, particularly in Asia and especially in China then "phoney" may not mean counterfeit.I've seen genuine Audioquest and PS Audio cables being sold from China sans any packaging. These items are indeed the real deal from the real factory made with the genuine materials.
I used to have a problem with this, but, if you choose to manufacture in Asia and especially China based on low cost/high margins then that's part of the cost of business.
I've seen factory new $220 1 meter AQ King Cobras on ebay for $46 from China. When compared to the same thing ordered from an "authorized dealer" they look, measure, feel, perform and even smell the same.
When I see that and factor in the cost of importation and packaging I'm not bothered by the Chinese sellers that offer "genuine" phoneys. Who the hell cares about authorized dealers when you're getting taken for a chump?
Have you ever seen Audio Advisor's "no frill, no packaging" cables from AQ and Kimber? What do you suppose these are?
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Edits: 01/11/11
is 50% owner of an American wire company based in Utah. While some cables may be manufactured abroad (HDMI terminated cables, IIRC), the vast bulk of Kimber's stock is manufactured in the USA.
His share in the company enables him to insure certain things which most companies can not control (like separate wire dies for silver and copper).
Stu
the only reason why the HDMI cables were made abroad was that the machinery for terminating them was extremely limited, with originally only two companies in Japan and one in Taiwan that had them.
Again, being part owner of a cable company has certain advantages in manufacture. Check out Kimber's Silver cables, and note their brilliant shine and extremely polished appearance, even through the insulation. That is the result of using laser cut diamond dies for drawing the wire, something most other manufacturers do not deem necessary. Even the copper wire of Kimber, particularly in their upper end offerings, has a final finish that most manufacturers do not have.
You can duplicate the look and insulation and even buy the braiding machines ( Kimber themselves once sold them), but it would be difficult to duplicate the fine details they employ in their manufacture.
Stu
The link below pertains to this topic.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
obvious from the photos in the Kimber press release ( or at least one of them, the close up of the braid structure), is that the wire is obvious not multigauge as true Kimber really is. Most of Kimber's speaker cables use seven strands of different wire gauges in each insulated bundle, an idea similar to the Cardas golden ratio, except Kimber's stranding is not based mathematically on the golden ratio.
If your purchased cable does not have the multiple gauges, then it definitely will not sound like Kimber's offerings, and neither is it, in any shape or form, a true "Kimber" cable. If your "clone" is built in the same manner, then it is no surprise that it doesn't sound like much, as it is probably simple hook up wire braided to simulate Kimber's offerings.
Also the first photo shows what Kimber's standard banana look like, a rather simple ubiquitous nickel plated banana. The next two photos show what appears to be Nordost or AudioQuest clones. They are neither as the serrations on the bananas do not match the appearance of the true Nordost or AQ bananas. As an upgrade, Kimber offers WBT ends.
Stu
I was refering to grey market items that are made overseas but taken out of the usual distribution chain and sold.I'm not talking about cheap assed Chinese rip off made to appear as an original item. These are two different things.
If Kimber Kable doesn't have anything manufactured overseas then obviously they aren't victom to this practice.
There was a case of some PS Audio AC 12s being sold on ebay for 1/3 of the retail price. Long story short, PS Audio all but admitted that it was genuine product that had been over run by the factory.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Edits: 01/12/11
You didn't even bother to adequately check out Elizabeth's claims. In looking at Badgirl's Audiogon posts, that close up of the braided structure is included in one of her posts.
Stu
I'm supposed to respond to that? She should shut the hell up until she knows something based on fact.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
And you ARE backpedalling. You spout off about this and do not even know Kimber makes all thier stuff (except HDMI) in the USA. So who is full of 'it'? i guess YOU are. And i agree you are a pot!
Anyone selling stuff over and over has something fishy going on. PERIOD.
And I have NO PROBLEM being a kettle either, you POT!
LOL (Or would you prefer being the kettle?)
StuPS incidentally the only Kimber speaker cable which uses seven strands of a single gauge internal wire is their base line 4 PR which IIRC retails for $2 per foot. So, if you paid more than $2 per foot for your "gray market" 4 TC, you got ripped off royally.
Edits: 01/14/11
I see you don't have a response for my retort of your backpeddling accusation.Probably won't have one here either.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Edits: 01/14/11
Why would I check out her claims, she has no idea of what is going on with that seller or what they are selling.
Get a life.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
.
I've also seen a lot of Audioquest cable (for example) - on eBay & elsewhere - being sold from China without packaging that was totally fake. I'm not contesting your point about the realities of subcontracting manufacture to low cost producers in Asia & elsewhere but I'd be willing to bet there's a lot more of the fake stuff than "genuine" product coming from China via eBay & Agon at the moment. The problem is that it's almost impossible to tell which you are buying until you receive the product & by then it's often too late.
In relation to Elizabeth's original issue, there's also a guy on A-gon selling a suspiciously large volume of Oyaide wall receptacles & covers at well below retail prices. Hard to know whether these are counterfeit or "gray market" ...
hard to know whether these are counterfeit or gray-market? the last i looked, the guy had a 183 rating on 61 transactions. i was hesitant to buy an R1 from him, but at 80 bucks, i decided it was worth a chance...and it was
So, can you *truly* tell whether they are genuine, grey market or simply counterfeit?
I have purchased some & I can't be 100% sure. But, if we're talking about the same guy, there's definitely something dodgy going on. He pupports to be selling off his own supply but has listed enough units to stock several apartment complexes since I've been paying attention. He also conducts a large number of his transactions outside the A-gon system (i.e. asks you to pay him directly rather than respond to his add) - neatly avoiding A-gon transaction fees & helping to protect his good feedback ratings...
you're right...i can't be 100% sure that they're truly oyaides. i was looking for a tweak that would smooth out/reduce glare in the mid/hi-mid frequencies, and after about a 40hr. break-in, i thought his oyaide R1 did that.
and sure, there's something dodgy going on with his heavily discounted price. i'm someone on a very limited income; so whether it's his cousin smuggling them out of an oyaide prodution facility or a longshoreman pilfering them off the dock, i thought a purchase was worth taking a chance on,
Agreed, you have to know which channels or sellers to go through to get grey market genuine.
It's really not that difficult.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
"Agreed, you have to know which channels or sellers to go through to get grey market genuine.
It's really not that difficult."
That is the key - being able to know in advance which is fake & which is grey market from the original manufacturer - but (at least to me) that seems quite difficult indeed. I would certainly be willing to buy grey market cable if I could be sure what I was ordering was going to be genuine. Care to explain how one identifies the safe channels or sellers?
Well not really for obvious reasons. No offense.
I can say they usually have 100% positive, claim it's genuine and offer a money back guarantee.
;)
Their are a few on audio forums, I have found that I can order alot of things at cost if you know the right people. I don't mean just things made in China.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Hmmm... not willing to divulge your secrets eh? I thought as much.
"I can say they usually have 100% positive, claim it's genuine and offer a money back guarantee"
I am not refering to the vendor named in this thread but I can also say that a record of positive feedback doesn't mean the products are genuine. Apart from the fact that many counterfeits are so convincing that most buyers wouldn't be aware they are receiving them, there are many means of manipulating feedback rating systems to ensure a very positive rating.
It may be OK by you to rip off manufacturers.. Not so by me. Go ahead, save your pennies...
Hey, they wanna move production to China to save a make a few pennies, support communism, destroy the manufacturing base of the US, oppress workers, etc...
I'll let you pay the 400%+ mark up.Maybe you can send a little extra to PS Audio, AQ or Kimber.
WTF?
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Edits: 01/11/11
.
Regardless.If you move your manufacturing to China for the sake of a buck, which most do, then if someone is cashing in on your greed I got no sympathy for you.
Quality products made here like Pass, Krell, Ayre and others deserve the full protection of American and International law regarding piracy of their products.
If some poor sap making $1 a day in China is sneaking 20-30 pairs of your ICs out the factory back door to feed his family then like I said, I got no sympathy for you.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Edits: 01/11/11
NOT cuz' you are right. Nor correct. Up above, you yourself post the link that explains Kimber is made in USA.
So.. what is your excuse? And do you even USE Kimber? I do. And yeah I paid retail from an authorized dealer, not from some skank ripping off any fool dumb enough to buy the shit the 'grey market' IE phoney, are selling.
You must've paid retail.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Well, I've read that some of their line up is made overseas. That is in conflict to what I read on their website, so who knows.
Grey market is not phoney. It's genuine product from outside of the normal retail chain for that product.
Do I use Kimber, no, I've auditioned it and it is nothing special to my ears. My ICs are all 100% guaranteed made in the USA, by people I know.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
the chances are those sleek faceplates and knobs are made in China.
Stu
Examples?
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
you rail against American companies farming production overseas, and yet you ignore some very basic facts. The vast majority of knobs and such are made in China these days. Elaborate faceplates are also largely made in China ( one notable exception is the one inch thick aluminum knurled faceplates of Rowland). In fact, the former head of Audio Alchemy has a company devoted to making a liaison between Chinese manufacturers and "custom" American companies. When asked as to his client list, of course, he demurs citing client privilege, but makes rather sweeping hints. ( or did so when I last spoke to him 5 years ago, I'm no manufacturer so I had no need of maintaining contact).
Check out Voice Coil magazine, the newsletter for the speaker industry. You see European and American equipment manufacturers but primarily they are machinery manufacturers (voice coil winders and such) and suppliers of supplies (Locktite is a frequent advertiser). Almost every company advertising cones, voice coils, magnet structures, even cabinets, are Chinese. An industry insider I know of whose designs are made in China and advertised as such, claims that 95+% of speaker components are made in China. Those that claim made in Denmark and such are usually simply subcontracted Chinese parts finally assembled in those particular countries. Even Mirage, a division of API, the largest speaker company in the world, has their cabinets being made in China, as does TAD.
While stuffed circuit boards are still often assembled in the US, much of the cosmetic items are subcontracted and manufactured abroad. Maybe when you pay 6 digits or so, there is enough in the profit to justify a made in Europe or America appellation. But increasingly, when you closely examine the components on the boards, you will find Chinese made resistors and capacitors and transistors themselves. Tube sockets are almost entirely dominated by Chinese manufacture these days.
Your attitude would make all purchasers buy from China.
Stu
For one example, I can name you at least one high quality, high end manufacturer that produces or has produced for them, everything in the US. This is done local to their facility. Their products don't even come close to 6 digit price tags.Cable manufactuers, among others, can do the same if they wish. From what I've found out it appears Kimber Kable has most of their cables made here in the US.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Edits: 01/12/11
Can you spot the difference? Kimber, Oyaide, Siltech, WBT, XLO. I bought some used 8tc on A-gon and it was fake. Sent it back and received a refund. Sounded terrible compared to genuine 4tc.
John
I'm talking about over runs from factory orders or duplicate/seperate runs of the same item.
This can and does happen.
If an Asian factory receives customer supplied material and after their order run has 20% left what do you think they do with it? Probably count it as waste or lost and run it out.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
right, but then you are calling the regular retail chain product a rip-off with 480$(?) markup, when you are now admitting that they may be selling off product which they got for free, or for virtually no cost because it is stolen or fraudulently acquired. In fact, if we assume that the manufacturers plan ahead and build in slack in their quotes to have surplus available for sale through the back door, then they are actually causing the price of the regular channel merchandise to go up, not the company having them made!!!
I tend to agree with you about the double-edged sword of cheap goods now/ mass unemployment later, but a rip-off is a rip-off.
Right, having cheap goods manufactured in Asia/China and then marking them up 480% is a rip off.
Stolen or fradulently acquired? In China? This stuff goes on all the time with the blessing of the factories involved and including the Chinese government.
They just look the other way.
What I'm saying is that's the cost of business of having your goods made there.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
I think you are missing my point -- these back door plays increase the cost to the vendor - and do not give a true reflection of the real cost to bring the product to market, and so do not form a realistic or accurate basis for determining a markup.
e.g., i run across a "street vendor" selling a virtually brand new $1000 bicycle for $75. I buy it, then post on the net that regular retaiol customers are being ripped off because the $1000 bike only costs $75 (or less!) to make.
grey market stuff costs less because there are fewer costs involved in "producing" them -- no R&D, no tooling or setup costs, no high priced marketing/advertising costs (the full page Stereophile ads are doing the selling, not the $5 audiogon listing!) etc.....
They were in place for good reason.
The resultant short term pain would mean long term gain for my country.
I don't need $2 t-shirts from Walmart.
Your statement: "Your attitude would make all purchasers buy from China."
makes no sense.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Has good feedback and many items for sale...
What, she bought a spool and is just selling it off? one lie at a time?
Good feedback doesn't mean it is not bootleg stuff.
And if Ray doesn't care, then neither do I. IF you noticed the header was addressed to RAY KIMBER. Not you.
Why bother posting on this forum??? Why not just Email Ray Kimber???
.
Check her post history.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
YOU calling me a troll is exactly like the pot calling the kettle black. Good luck with THAT one.
nt
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