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I've tweaked the heck out of about every aspect of my system I can think of with the exception of speaker wires. Lot's of great results with DIY IC's based on different recipes and some of my own including some marvelous sounding IC's using Doc's magic magnet wire but am currently running a couple pair of Heartland Belden 89259 with Eichmann bullets for IC's (couldn't build 'em cheaper than I could buy 'em!).Still have 12g Sound King for the speakers and they're saying, 'We want to be special, too!' so it's time to go with new speaker wires, either purchased or DIY. Which got me thinking, what do the other Bottleheaders like for speaker cables and IC's with our small but mighty tubed amps and high efficiency speakers?
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Interesting discussion, as I was looking for new speaker wire. I found I have about 100 feet of CAT 5 but since its old don't know whether it is patch or cross over. Anyone know how to tell? Does it matter?
I use high end silver ICs (air/cotton, home brew design that blows away the VenHaus silver teflon I used before by a huge margin) and place the mono blocks right behind the speakers, essentially eliminating the speaker wire as a major factor. Connections (or bypass thereof) are suddenly more important than the cable. I have soldered the wire directly to the inside wires of my speakers to streamline the path even more.I've made the experience that the ebst speaker cables are those that hardly exisit. It is a lot cheaper to build super-high-end ICs than speaker cables, especially if they need to carry a lot of current like in my case (big maggies, lotsa watts - tubes are only in the Foreplay here)
Just dumped some Blue Heavens and XLO ultras for Chris Venhaus's new co-ax. Next to the VH, the Blue Heaves were opaque, had no low level resolution, sounded quite bad in fact. I was pretty shocked I must say! This is seriously good stuff, top to bottom. I think it's going to replace my infamous Green Hornet in the digital position also. He offers finished product ('Pulsar' ic) and plain wire. This wire (i used Eichmann rca's) is my first VH product, and I highly recomend it.
I use teflon coated Cat5 for all interconnects and internal signal wiring. I have tried some silver wire but didn't like it. Everytime I change some stranded wire to the cat5 you can hear the difference. To me it doesn't sound like wire, it's transparent. I have not tired all the wire out there but can't see how anything can beat the price performance ratio.
I sent a friend some cat5 interconnects and he wouldn't use them because he had his kimber hero ICs. I was just visiting him last week. I brought the foreplay I built for him. As I was trying to get his system sounding good, I found those cat5 ICs and replaced the Hero's. It rocked his world. He was a firm believer in the concept that you get what you pay for. You know the type; reads stereophile, buys into the hype.
Does anyone want to buy some used .5M Kimber Hero's?As far as speaker cable I am using Axon 8 I believe it is called. I purchased it from Zalytron for around $2/ foot. It is 8 individually insulated solid copper wires around a poly core. Very nice sounding. I have not been tempted to try anything new since.
I built a pair of Kevin 's Concertric speaker cables and find them to be very detailed and smooth. They replaced a double run of Doc's Mag Wire which I thought were the best speaker cables I had heard in my system. All my interconnects are from the now defunct entwined IC kit. They are very nice but had to be made for each installation because they are stiff and can be damaged by crimping. One advantage to rolling your own is you can make each pair the length required instead of settling for the 6' pr because the 3' just wasn't long enough. So my vote is for DIY MagWire interconnects and Haskin/Cardas Concentric speaker cable kit. To buy IC's and Cables that sound better you are going to have to give someone a lot of money.
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I've had a LOT of different wire in my system.(AQ, XLO, Kimber, MIT, Cardas, Tara etc) For a long time I was using AQ crystal ICs and F88 for speaker wire. F88 was (and still is) one of the best speaker wires I ever tried, but nobody else seemed to think so. (AQ never advertised it) Its a ribbon cable design of 20g OFC long grain copper at around $5 a foot, MUCH better than type4 or type6 but still not too expensive.Then I found out about Hiwire. Made by a guy in his garrage it didn't have very wide distribution (mostly in the Bay Area), but sounds awesome. I wound up with a full set of hiwire ICs and speaker cables. It wasn't cheap ($400 for ICS, $900 for speaker), but sounded better than anything else I had heard. I never liked silver in either IC or speaker.
Since getting into Bottlehead stuff I've been trying various DIY ICS and speaker cables. I tried several different CAT5 and they were quite good, not quite as good as the Hiwire, but MUCH cheaper and almost as good. Then I tried the twisted pair of Docs 18g magnet wire. WOW, this is GOOD. For my system now this is better than the Hiwire or CAT5. I'm still using the Hiwire ICS.
I met Allen Wright at VSAC and spent quite a while talking with him about cables, I was really impressed with what he has to say about the subject. I'm in the process of putting together a couple of his IC designs, from what I heard at the show I think these are going to be the best yet.
I use two runs of CAT5 per channel (one "+", the other "-"), twisted together (about one turn per foot) between my Paramours and Cornwalls. I don't 'believe in' esoteric cable materials and configurations, but I tried this one because it was cheap and easy to test. It sounded better than the 16-Ga ropelay zip cord I'd been using, so I decided it was good. :-)
Answer this one for me? People use expensive speaker cables from the amp terminals to the speaker. However, on a Paramour kit you use cheap maybe 18 guage stranded wire CUT OFF FROM THE fuse wire to connect from the T21-T25 strip to the output terminals.Question - What is purpose of the expensive cable from output terminals to speaker if the signal HAS ALREADY PASSED through 3 inches of cheaper 18 guage wire? If you are a believer in expensive speaker wire (I'm not) and think regular stranded wire degrades your sound then the output signal has been degraded EVEN BEFORE it got to your expensive speaker wire!
from degrading any further? The fact that it has been degraded once to start doesn't seem like a sound argument against keeping as much further degradation down as possible over the course of five to twelve feet of more wire speaker. Just a thought (hopefully you liked the pun if you noticed).
Yes, the wire should be "good" wire everywhere. There are wire manufacturers who make harnesses to go inside your speaker enclosure to upgrade the "crap" there.And, it is pretty hard to wind an output transformer with designer wire, so you have to have the stock wire there. You may put designer wire between the transformer and the binding posts. Some people have (I haven't!).
But you see that this hobby has different levels of perversion. That was a benefit of taking my wife to VSAC, she almost thinks I’m normal now.
And as Tim points out, there is the magnitude of the run thing. I go along with that too.
It depends on the depth of your perversion/dedication.
But it is all for fun. I do hear an improvement with changing conductors. When it is worth the investment, I buy. Usually it is not big enough for the money.
YMMV
You could say the same thing about the signal passing through a binding post or spade connector. My impression was always that is had to do with the length of the run. The 3 inches of cheaper wire won't do much to the signal, but compound 8 feet of the cheaper wire and it gets worse the further it travels down the wire.
Ok, (not in any order) I have been through some AQ: Emerald, Ruby and Diamond. Tried Kimber PBJ and KCAG. Really liked Alpha Core Micro Purl Silver, Cardas Reference but settled on Harmonic Tech Truth Link. Home brew, I made a lot of Belden 9259 cables throughout the 90s. Recently I even made an active shielded (ala Synergistic Research) out of a pair of KCAGs. All these were used to connect the source components to the preamp.From preamp to power amp I have been using a 14’ run of home brew 9259 cables. I never got the cash to buy a designer cable here.
I have barely dabbled in speaker wire and have settled on a run of AQ (who knows what) that looks like a garden hose (4’ runs).
I built a pair of Jon Risch version IC's with the Belden coax cable (don't remember the number but it is the one he puts at the top of his list...) and following his updates about mixing in a solid core and stranded, I used some of the left over magnet wire from the Staight 8's I built....I used good SCRA RCA jacks and teflon plumbers tape to wrap it. Best $40 interconnects I've ever heard..... borrowed a set of my friends $300 Stealth IC's just to compare. Not even close.... gave 'em back in two days.
Interconnects: I have been using DIY interconnects from Allen Wright's "Super Cable Cookbook" for the last three years. the version I built use approximately 32 to 36 ga wire wrap wire (like magnet wire only with a plastic insulation) with Radio Shack RCA plugs. Silver wire or long grain wire would probably be better, but I did this on weekend with no planning and they sounded so good I do not want to change. Try long interconnects, short speaker wires. Get the book!!!! Allen is a genius.Speaker cables: I am using Nordost flatline, two leads per connection. Alopmost as good and one-half the cost is the "home theater" flat cable sold at Lowes (meant to go under wallpaper). Based on my experiments so far, Allen Wright's ribbon designs are probably better. I will try them next.
Keith,I am doing the same thing in my system, "long interconnects, short speaker wires." But that goes counter to the philosophy that a larger voltage level is more "robust!"
We ought to try short interconnects, long speaker cable. The signal should be less delicate once amplified.
But who knows.
Been there, done that, tried everything, bought the T-shirt :-)Eventually came back to the two conductor stuff that is used for household electrical wiring. About 14 or 16 gauge, I think. Two single strands of insulated copper in a figure 8 layout. The only thing to be careful of is not to kink it or flex it too much as, unlike multistrand wire, it can break at stress points.
Don't laugh - try it.
CAT 5 in various formulations is fun to play with, too, as is very thin (like 22-24 gauge) single strand silver or magnet wire - but I always breath a sigh of relief when the single thick copper wire goes back in. The only drawback I've noted is that this stuff can corrode very quickly if the insulation is not real tight. I've not noticed that problem with CAT 5, and certainly not with magnet wire (IMHO one of the main reasons it always sounds so good is the protection of the surface against all corrosion by the lacquer).
Like everyone else started with braided cat 5 cable, sounded OK, went to single stranded silver, much better, and finally to silver ribbon ala Allen Wright, the best sounding to date. I am now trying some litz braided cryo treated cat 6, this is very close to the silver ribbon cable. I have ordered some Van den Hul C-122 cable, will give it a try. The only commercial cable that I have used is Silver Sonic, it was equal to the cat 5 braided cable but all other of my cables have been far superiorFor IC's I have tried everything out there, my best cables are solid silver, silver ribbon, braided CCC magnet wire, and now solid 20 awg Vampire CCC, I really enjoy this construction. Personally I am leaning toward any cable built with the Vampire CCC magnet wire (litz braided), with Eichmann Bullet RCA's or Vampire 800c OFC RCA's. I much prefer the sound of Continious Cast Copper over Silver in my system. All interconnect are encased in some sort of teflon (tube, 3/8" tape, plumbers tape)with braided copper around that, grounded only at one end, and with heat shrink over the cu braid. I use teflon plumbers tape on all bare copper in the RCA, and fill in the void inside the RCA's case with a split EAR plug.
Ok, this is the second mention of Allen Wright. But no one has given the rest of us a URL.Is there somewhere we can go look into this????
Thanks, this is a good thread. I will add mine in in a minute.
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There Is Only One
Lee,Regarding the 20 awg Vampire CCC ICs you have made -- is this a single run each direction or is it braided? If braided, how many runs each direction?
Have you tried the Chimera Labs wire? I am playing around with Vampire 21 gauge CCC and am going to try the Chimera next.
The 20 awg Vampire CCC IC's are single strands in teflon tube, cu braid, head shrink. Most of the ideas on the CCC have come from Chimera Labs. I have not used their wire, but use the Vampire CCC 26.5 awg instead of their 25.5. Vampire is less than .10/ft from Michael Percy Audio. I will be building new IC's using 4 26.5 awg, just as the Chimera ones. I like the Eichmann RCA's due to performance (OFC) and especially for their price, half the price of Vampire, DH Labs, etc.I will use the 21awg in a new set of speaker cables that I plan to make, 4 or 5 strands per lead. It is extremely time consuming braiding 10 strands of wire, especially in the longer lengths required for speakers cables.
Most of the ideas on the CCC have come from Chimera Labs. I have not used their wire, but use the Vampire CCC 26.5 awg instead of their 25.5.The Vampire isn't 26.5 gauge. It's more like 25.5. Might even be the same wire Chimera's selling. It's not like there are many companies producing this stuff. :)
I will be building new IC's using 4 26.5 awg, just as the Chimera ones. I like the Eichmann RCA's due to performance (OFC) and especially for their price, half the price of Vampire, DH Labs, etc.
I've tried the Vampire 26.5, er, 25.5 in a quad braid using the Eichmanns. Very good combination and hard to beat the price.
For me though it was bettered by a quad braid of 30 gauge Alloy 30, a copper/nickel alloy resistance wire with a double build polyurethane enamel (same as what's used on the Vampire). However I'm not aware of anyone selling that type of wire in conveniently small quantities for DIY unless 10 pounds is conveniently small. :)
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Steve, thank you for the information. The 26.5 awg came from Michael Percy cat., the Vampire wire web site indicates that it is 25 awg. I have always believed that the Chimera wire was a Vampire product, they use Vampire RCA's, and highly recommend them as well as all of the other OFC products.
About as simple as it can get and yet sounds to my ears better than my old standbys Audioquest Clear and my only other DIY wire: CAT5 braid. (Paramours to Pi Theater 4s bi-wired)
I used to have an old pair of Monster Cables and then tried a pair of Audioquest for speakers and also for IC. On a lark, I built the Jon Risch 89259 Belden Cable design for both the Speaker Cables and the IC's. I Bi-wired the Speaker Cables and used Vampire Lugs on each end. The change was absolutely breath taking. Sound stage, music focus, clarity, and overall detail is now incredible.I was able to go directly to Belden and as long as I bought 100' at approximately $.75 a foot. The biggest change was in the Speaker Cables altough I did notice a much smoother, more detailed, and less harsh output with the IC.
Having heard these I cannot imagine spending big bucks for other Cables and IC's.
This can be found for between 25 and 50 cents a foot at bigger home centers. I go to Home Depot.Unlike another suggestion I strip out the individual twisted pairs and use each individual pair as speaker wire. I like it a lot, certainly for the price. When I first put it in it was sibilant as heck. Sounded really awful but after several hours (4 to 6 minimum) they settled down and now sound really good.
Price for 4 10 foot lenghs of speaker wire: about $4.50 I think with tax.
I like them much better then my old wires. Anyone wanna buy some vintage Monster Cable?
I still enjoy the old AudioQuest cables. I have a pair of Type4 running on my system right now. They are nice solid copper conductors and I believe they used what they called LGC (long grain copper). I see some Type4 and Type6 up on Ebay from time to time. Good bang for the buck.
As far as ICs go, I've had Monster Cable in my system (great shielding is about the nicest thing I can say about them.)DIY Kimber PBJ (did not suck).
DIY Homegrown Super Silver II (also did not suck, and still in service.)
My new fave is on loan from Cope: the Audio Note Lexus. This is a copper Litz design. Compared to the Super Silver, they're a little more refined and "mature". My best comarison is that the Homegrown is like a fine wine right out of the bottle; the Lexus is like the wine after it's been decanted for an hour and had a chance to open up. I've got Lexus ruuns from my Seduction to MJ head amp or FP, and from FP to Cope's WannaGlows. Good stuff.
Well, it could be arranged, but then your wife would have to kill one or both of us.
I've tried a few different things, and settled for now on some cables made out of 2 lengths of CAT 5 Plenum-rated(teflon). I leave the sheath on, strip the 8 wires down about an inch, then put the 4 solids from each of the 2 cables togther for one lead, and the 4 stripes together for the other lead. Do the same on the other end for the speakers connections. Only takes a few minutes to do & sounds a lot better than using all eight in the same sheath for each side; also than other variations I've tried or twisted magnet wire.
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