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In Reply to: RE: Too much noise? posted by A.Wayne on December 22, 2016 at 18:50:12
I've used every generation of BelCanto ClassD (TriPath, ICE Power and nCore) and they each sounded different. As for running 1/2ohm loads, I cannot comment.However, my main point here is that noise pollution is not a big issue and one should simply assess/choose on the basis of performance.
Edits: 12/22/16Follow Ups:
I have to disagree Kal , the noise is very important and it's one of the reasons IMO why class-D is so sensitive to power cords . In a similair discussion with that other John ( Curl) it was one of his main reasons at the time for staying away from SMPS ...
Well those are the ones in discussion , not Linear supply class-D ...
It is about class D amps and they can be powered in different ways.
Kal ,
It's academic, the noise in discussion is emitted by SMPS supplies , not the amp, hence why PSRR is so important with them.
you can power class-D on batteries for all that ...
You are correct but the fact is that, while the majority of ClassD amps use SMPS, not all do.
Nonetheless, when one generally speaks of a ClassD amp, one is referring to the audio amplification portion and, as we agree, the PS can be SMPS, conventional linear or, even, a battery. This distinction has not been explicit in this thread before and, as you point out, should be.
Switching power supplies do not have to be noisy. Check out this link from Benchamrk on the subject. Their DAC's, as well as the AHB 2 amps sound very good, with very low noise floors, and switching power supplies.
When a company like Primare states that they can achieve better sound from their Class D vs. Class AB, that should tell folks that technology does indeed move forward.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
It's audio Freo, better for whom ..?
Too much subjectivity with sound , best we stick with SMPS noise and PSRR with amplifiers ... :)
Personally ,
I find Class-D to be super sensitive to power cords, the noise going back unto the AC line can be measured so it's not a subjective deal, one can always chk or not.
Pro: I have always liked the jump factor of class-D and always willing to try because of , but could never live with their poor timbre and for some, a odd presentation and no i have not heard the Bel Canto black or Mola , Mola ...
I did like the Devialet mono's, which is not all class-D ..
Regards ..
Did you read the Benchmark link? They believe that their switching power supplies are actually quieter than linear power supplies. The points they make about hum and magnetic interference are valid.
The Primare uppeer frequencies/timbre is unique among the class D amps I've heard. Their solution is proprietary, and works as good as a well designed Class AB (IMHO).
BTW, when I want to do serious listening, the Stax headphone setup (with SR 007) is what I use. I find it's superior to pretty much any regular playback setup. :-)
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
This may or may not be true, it could also be nothing more than an Infomercial from the CO and since I dont design amplifiers, i usually yield to others better than I, like John Curl and Nelson Pass to name a few and unless their position on this has changed recently , they think SMPS are a problem and prefer Linear supplies as I and I'm not new to switchers either , my first was for my bespoke Pre-amp in 78 , the pre-amp had a fantastic sound , but others could hear it switching , when close to it , i had isolated it to the AC line via a 14V linear supply the SMPS delivered 24 volts to the flat amp and phono stage when supplied with 14 volts ..It Bettered all my threshold pre's, a MC22 and was only bettered later by a ML26 pre in the late 80's ..
I still have it , so I'm not switching negative , just not sold on any superiority over Linear designs as of yet.
I have no issue purchasing a switcher, purchase will be based on performance , not because of ..
Regards..
Edits: 01/15/17
Until recently, always thought that switching power supplies were problematic. The Benchmark DAC 2 DX has better noise measurements than the vast majority of DAC's available. I think the point paper Benchmark put out on switching power supplies is valid, using state of the art devices and designs.
Agree with the statement that performance of the gear is the most important, regardless of design topology. Having said that, nothing I've heard so far sounds better than listening to music with the Stax headphone setup.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Theta Prometheus/Dreadnaught
Classe Sigma Mono
...in addition to the Mola-Mola and Bel Canto.
They are quite different.
Agree. I'm currently using a a pair of Primare A34.2 amps configured in mono. The Primare has switching a power supply, and it's very quiet. The fact that it can put out 1100 watts into a nominal 4 ohm load of my Dynaudio Focus 360's really makes them sing. I highly doubt folks would pick up on the fact they are class D, as they sound very much like a top performing Class A A/B setup.
BTW, Benchmark has a point paper about the switching power supplies in their DAC2/3 units. They state the noise floor is LESS with the switching power supply units in the DAC. I can attest to the fact that the Benchmark DAC2 DX provides a DEAD quiet background for the music.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
My PLASMA TV emits orders of magnitude MORE RFI / HASH than my 'd' integrated with B&O ASP modules.
I mean I can hear my Plasma TV from 50khz (way below AM band) out to 30Mhz. And out to maybe 25 feet or so. I wish I had a scope to see if or how MUCH of this nonsense made it to my speaker terminals.
Too much is never enough
When you hit 25 you wont notice it much ..... :)
In years past, even if I couldn't HEAR any noise, I noticed when it was removed. When I installed a power conditioner, I popped my ears. Nothing wrong before but OH!, the after.
Too much is never enough
I'm not disagreeing with you , only passing on my experiences , we have only listened to class-D on ESL's , ribbons, ribbon hybrids and here they fail in comparison to good class-A A/ab Amps, I'm technically aware they would sound differently at 8 ohms with conventional higher sensitivity speakers and had looked into modifying the output inductor for low Z operations.
Frankly the lack of proper heatsinking and limited PSU would have to be addressed for that also, imo opinion they are currently best as 8 ohm amplifiers.
Regards.
Edits: 12/23/16
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