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Friends,
I am contemplating getting a preamp with in-built high quality phono stage. I have shortlisted EAR 868/912 or Audio Note M3/M5 phono. I plan to buy pre-owned so I am flexible about the models. The power amp that will be driven will be a Nelson Pass First Watt F6 initially and slowly I may get into the SET domain. Can someone tell me about the sonic difference between EAR and Audio Note preamps ? I value speed, dynamics and purity of tone. I am neither for artificial warmth or artificial clarity.
Follow Ups:
My target preamp has changed a bit. I am still considering Audio Note M5 strongly but after a recent audition of some Audio Research gears I am also considering the ARC Ref 5 SE preamp. Audio Note vs Audio Research, M5 vs Ref 5 SE !!The amp that will be driven will most probably be a First Watt F6 so it is not a deciding factor as I see it. Anyone here with experience with both Audio Note and Audio Research preamp, please chime in.
P.S: I listened to the 912 but did not quite like it because it sounded somewhat dry for my taste.
With your original quest I might not have chimed in, but with AR thrown in, I would venture a David Berning pre. I personally use the current Zotl Pre one, but even the venerable model 12 will give most AR gear a run.
AN gear on the other hand can be great, although it tends to be really expensive, having only the heard the Zero and ... the M7.
Both great in their ways and would allow you to get out of the chase.
Just like the Berning did for me (with phono!)
The Audio Research Sp-20 is the current iteration of the right ARC with phono to buy.
The SP-20 is $9K new.
I saw one last month on Audiogon for under $5k.
I paid $1,500 for my Sp-15. But they have always been rare, used.
If you want phono built in, I do not understand the ARC Reference.. They do not have built in phono
Anyway, I would throw in the ARC SP-20 as the one to hear.
My friend has ARC PH7 and except for a little better control in the bass and adjustability /convenience, pretty display etc Audio Note Kit's M3 is an easily better phono stage . This, with inferior M2 power supply,inferior hook up wire (audio note silver litz is pretty special ) and no black gates in Psu ,hammond choke and other non audio note bits.
The only cart we prefer Audio Research unit with is Koetsu Onyx which is a "weird" sounding cartridge on its own. Don't get me wrong , PH7 is a VERY nice phono stage, as it should for the price and in some systems may be preferable.
My target preamp has changed a bit. I am still considering Audio Note M5 strongly but after a recent audition of some Audio Research gears I am also considering the ARC Ref 5 SE preamp. Audio Note vs Audio Research, M5 vs Ref 5 SE !!The amp that will be driven will most probably be a First Watt F6 so it is not a deciding factor as I see it. Anyone here with experience with both Audio Note and Audio Research preamp, please chime in.
P.S: I listened to the 912 but did not quite like it because it sounded somewhat dry for my taste.
I had a Ref5se and an AudioNotekits Mentor, which is based on the M10?? I liked both, and used them interchangeably. I thought for a while I preferred the Mentor, and sold the 5se. I decided I missed it and bought another. Point being, I thought if I could have only one, it would be the Mentor. But I found I missed some of what the 5se brought to the party, especially with my 75se. I also have ANK L4 monoblocks.
All that said, if you listen to a Ref 6, you will have no question which way to go. I bought one of those, and sold the Mentor. The Ref 6 is just phenomenal in every way.
I did try both the 5se and Mentor with several Pass and First Watt amps, and used single ended with the Sit2 and F5, it was a better choice. With the balanced 30.8 and J2, the 5se is better.
Remember this is all supposed to be fun. Buy right, and you can try all the combinations and decide what the keepers are. I tend to view most gear as temporary, using it for 2-3 years if really good, and selling it for something "better"... But the Ref 6, now that is probably in for a longer stay!
which amp are you using w/ the Ref6 ?
I owned the 868 and loved it. I had it paired to a First Watt J2. Dead silent and a magical combo. It was a big powerful sound that was also very musical. Basically, it was a tubed pre- with some balls. I'll be buying it again at some point. I sold it only because I went down the headphone path for a bit because of room constraints. Just so you know where I'm coming from....I value a highly dynamic and immediate sound with a large soundstage. In the past, I've owned the Shindo Monbrison, Tom Evans Vibe/Pulse, and a bunch of others. The 868 is my favorite tubed pre-, the Vibe/Pulse with SET my favorite ss pre.
The phonostage is exceptional.
Hope this helps.
IF.. seriously ? after the best possible Pjono stage yet devised. Making your 2 above choices akin to something from Radio Shack.
Go here Read and learn.
Then build Very inexpensive as well Just to add insult to injury.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/129126-simplistic-njfet-riaa.html
Have a look at the Acoustic Plan Sarod. This is a very good preamp (comes with or without phono built in) with less editorializing of the sound then either EAR or AN. Most EAR preamps sound darkish and somewhat closed in sounding but not the 912, which is a really good preamp. The AN M5 is pretty natural sounding but warms things up a bit more than I think is realistic. Once you get to the AN pres with silver output transformers then the sound gets more neutral.
You should also consider the Manley Steelhead, which is primarily a phonostage but also has a line input. This is a very good sounding design as well.
What Morricab said. I've owned a bunch of EAR gear and the 912 is truly a great sounding versatile pre-amp. I bought it specifically for the flexibility of the phono stage(s) as well as the numerous outputs (RCA, XLR, and tape outs).The EAR 834p *could* be one of those rare pieces that I have sworn allegiance to and then sold...and then bought back again. I've done that more times I like to admit with classic pieces of audio, but not yet with the EAR 834p.
Anyway, I'm off on a jag. I've never compared one of the Audio Note UK pre-amps to a 912. I've heard a few pieces of the Audio Note UK gear (at different price points), and for my money the all-silver stuff (as a complete system) sounds friggin' brilliant. But then you're feeling sheepish about swapping components in and out and all that. Maybe if you're looking to build up to an entire Audio Note UK system, then you should go with an M5 (or an M8 or M9 if you can afford it).
But the 912 is a really safe option. Like, really safe. Sure, Tim puts some pretty cheap / crappy parts in his gear, and the chassis' range from ringing aluminum bells to tin cans, but the tubes are not run hard and the stuff is darn near bullet proof. His knowledge of transformer winding (and, respectively, their cores) is *probably* bettered by none, yes - including Peter at Audio Note UK. If I had to give up my EAR 912 and replace it with another tubed pre-amp (w/ phono), I'd probably go with an Audible Illusions 3a w/ the John Curl phono board.
So my intention is not to divert you from Audio Note UK on this one. Quite the contrary actually. I'd say if you get an M-series pre-amp w/ phono, then you should also get the wire, amps, and speakers too. But if you want to play around a lot with different brands and systems, then I'd say putting EAR gear in the chain is a no brainer. I love my EAR 912.
Oh....for the record. Most underrated phono stage I've come across (to our American market) is the phono stage that they use in the Gryphon Diablo integrated amp. Totally different animal that we're talking about (solid scrape, inside an integrated amp, etc), but that is my main reference point for the most transparent / clean sounding solid-state phono stage.
But I like tubes, so I fall back to the 2 phono stages in the EAR 912 and my trusty EAR 834p.
Edits: 12/21/16 12/21/16
Audio Note is more a "it's better when it's all together" or the system is better than the sum of the parts.
I'm in the same boat - I am looking for a new preamp and deciding between the M3Phono and M6 Line with added phono stage later. I have tried some other preamps but many lack a phono stage and start costing amounts that while at retail are lower - will wind up costing me more down the line.
But when you're dealing with solid brands at these prices the onus is on you. If you are not close to a dealer ask the dealer if they have customers near you and they may be able to hook you up with auditions to people who own the gear. That's what I did - My dealer put me in contact with a wealthier individual who had AN's flagship system and I got hear it all. Here in Hong Kong I did the same and that's how I got to hear a Shindo Petrus into AN Kegon amplifiers through the AN E/Spx Alnico Hemp speakers (the same ones that Steve Hoffman has).
As I am sure you know the EAR does have some advantages with regards to flexibility - the EAR phono stages take MM and MC cartridges - the AN preamp is MM only requiring you to buy a SUT. Further you can make on the fly adjustments to the EAR adjusting its gain. Plus it comes with balanced outputs (AN charges extra).
So you really have to like the sound the AN puts out (and the purity of removing all the switches and gain stages etc) to trump the features of the EAR.I'd love to get both of them here myself to try out. I initially didn't care for EAR but not that long back I tried them again and quite liked what I heard. Then again I hated AN the first time I heard them too. So it goes.
RGA, thanks for your inputs. I did hear a M3 phono, M6 phono and M2 RIAA. The minimum I can settle for is a M3 phono but optimally it will be a M5 phono. I am not looking at the SUT factor because I am prepared to get a Ortofon Verto SUT for $600 or so and get started. The main performance has to come from the phono stage. It is the biggest deciding factor, much more than preamp too. I mean a M3 with a superb phonostage will trounce a M6 with decent phono stage in a big way. But, like you I also want it all in one box so I think M5 phono vs EAR 868/912 will have to fight it out. BTW, I have never heard any EAR gears, what is your take on their sound signature ?
I have never heard an EAR preamp. I have heard AN(UK) M3 - M6. They all were fussy with my non-AN SET amps. Fortunately, I have an AN dealer nearby who lets me audition this stuff at home for at least a week.
First off I am biased - I have owned an EAR 868PL ( you need that suffix if you want a phonostage) for the last 7 years and it still knocks me out. Also Tim ds P's build quality is fantastic.
As supplied (with EAR tubes) it is musically very coherent but a little rounded off at both frequency extremes. I used these tubes happily for a couple of years but then swapped in Tungsram PCC88s and. later, Telefunken PCC88s from the 1960s. Both are great at extending the performance of the pre but for my tastes the Telefunkens rule, especially in regard to openess and bass control. NB: I run in and out balanced (except for the phono in of course). You can, of course, also use ECC 88s but not mixed with the PCCs.
Specifically the 868 is a fully modern sounding tube pre. The phonostage is particularly noteworthy as it basically an 88P (think of the 868 as an 88P with extra line inputs). The phono section has substantial gain and even quite low output cartridges can work through the MM section. However Tim de P is a world expert in transformer design for audio and I just prefer my MCs via the inbuilt step up trandformers even if it results in a low volume control setting. Not mentioned in the instruction manual but there are various input transformer settings available on the PCB using jumpers or, in some earlier samples, a slider switch.
To my ears the Audio Note UK offerings can be fairly described as having a "classic tube sound". However this tends to remind me a bit of my uncle's radiogram in the late 1950s. Maybe it's really the corner loaded AN speakers dominating my memory. Nevertheless I suspect that most lovers of the AN sound would not go for EAR Yoshino and vice versa.
Just to add confusion I love what I have heard of Kondo electronics so it might be thought inconsistent if I am less keen on AN UK.
Of course both AN and EAR are good products so it is just my personal preferences here.
Thanks. It is difficult to believe that AN lovers wont like EAR. The higher end AN gears are very high resolution and transparent machines.
By the way, have you compared the EAR phono with any other external phono ?
For external phono amps I also have here a (a coincidence given your moniker) Plinius M4 (or is it M3?), anyway the Peter Tompson era one that is about the same size as most people's power amps. The EAR is vastly superior.
Just a bit puzzled by your reference to " any other external phono" as the EAR one under discussion is, of course, built in.
I just want to add, the important bit is getting involved with music. The EAR 868 aids this magnificently.
Heck if you want clarity and a totally neutral transparent preamp then check out a Conrad Johnson with the teflon cap and Vishay resistor upgrade.
Mine is like nothing is there. BUT IT IS!
So, no CJ for me. I really love Wavac preamps but they too lack phonostage.
They have a built in phono section.
The ET3SE has one
Its difficult to imagine an ET3SE would compete with EAR 912 or AN M5. I am looking for an end of the road kind of solution.
Second,
CJ ET-3SE pre-amp.
It's difficult, but it DO!You want transparent and neurtral- that's what it does best.
The $1000 stepped attenuator in place of a volume control alone is worth it
Edits: 11/10/16
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