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I've been reading about the differences between mono and stereo subwoofer output and there appears to be disagreements as to the advantages and disadvantages of each. I'm of the opinion that stereo low bass output, when included in the recording, is a valuable addition for systems that can take advantage of it. I have experienced the differences between a single subwoofer, dual mono subwoofers, and stereo subwoofers and prefer stereo subwoofers, especially when they've been carefully integrated into the system and room.Here's my point...
I was considering getting a Parasound P5 preamplifier because it has an onboard mains/subwoofers crossover feature I could use with my stand-mount speakers and powered subwoofers. But when I saw that the P5 (and preamp section of their Integrated amp) uses mono (summed channel) subwoofer outputs I decided against it. So the question is why would Parasound not include stereo subwoofer outputs in a preamp obviously designed for stereo music? I can't imagine that it would cost that much more to incorporate stereo output but perhaps they just used their simple 2.1 design rather than a new 2.2 design because 2.2 is in fact considerably more expensive.
I thought about writing to Parasound but first I wanted to get some perspective from Asylum members. Is stereo subwoofer output important enough to justify the additional cost?
Thanks for any comments.
Tom
PS: I found other preamps with stereo subwoofer cross-over features but they're much more expensive than the Parasound P5 because they include more expensive materials and features. I haven't found anything of similar design with stereo subwoofer outputs.
Edits: 10/10/16 10/10/16 10/10/16 10/10/16Follow Ups:
I now have stereo subwoofers. Previously, I had two 20-year old mono subwoofers located behind my listening position. My new Rythmik servo subs are much better sounding than my 20-year old acoustic suspension subs, but I don't think stereo versus mono has anything to do with that. Personally, I don't think there is anything to be gained in imaging and soundstage by using stereo subs for the bottom octave as opposed to mono. All cues for imaging come from much higher frequencies than the bottom octave. I know this for a fact in my system because the soundstage is no different with stereo subs than with mono. YMMV
Hi, John,
My subs are outboard of the mains and get reinforcement from the sidewalls so they have more influence on imaging. I ran the subs similar to how yours are set up but prefer the sound as they are now.
Regards,
Tom
So you are NOI using EQ?
Yes, no wonder you feel they affect imaging. It's nearly impossible to properly integrate a sub without it.
Life is too damn short to jump through hoops for so so bass. Good EQ's areinaudible, especially if they only work on the subs. The improvement in integration and seamlessness is huge, even if you could hear the EQ working, and you can't, it's a worthwhile trade off.
But few believe me because they haven't heard it. So, I'll stop yelling now.
Sorry.
Erik
I'll probably try a different arrangement in the future, but I'm still in awe of their amazing sound quality in their current position so I don't want to mess with anything just yet.
Thanks,
John Elison
Those are nice subs, with a lot of possibilities in finding just the right settings. I'm a believer in dual subwoofers and wouldn't want to give them up.
Have fun!
Tom
Another option might be to get a sub with a high pass filter. The JL "E" series has this. Something I'm considering. I've heard the crossover in the JL is quite good. I haven't heard it directly. Simply regurgitating what others have said.
Hi, jeagle,
My subs do have that feature and I've tried it but didn't like the results as well as running the mains straight from the amp and the subs running off the line output. My stereo and room setup is working really well but I've been considering how to get that last bit of sound quality from the main speakers. For stand-mount speakers they have very good bass output but I'd like to see how they'd do without having to produce those frequencies. See if the mids and highs improve when the speakers don't have to deal with the low bass.
Regards,
Tom
If a sub is truly well integrated, then you cannot localize it at all. It makes no difference if it's on the left or right.
With two subs it's much better to use a mono sub signal, so you can place them assymetrically and minimize room modes. This gives you the maximum dynamic range and frequency accuracy.
Otherwise, if you keep the signal separate, they can't fill in for each other.
Of course, proper room acoustics and EQ are key to good sub sound.
Best,
Erik
Hi, erik,
Thanks for the reply.
Your assertion that placement of subwoofers has no affect on imaging and that stereo subs can't be optimized in a room has to be qualified, with caveats. Whether or not you can localize a subwoofer depends on many aspects of system and setup but isn't what I'm referring to or having to contend with.
I'm more interested in maintaining stereo imaging with stereo subwoofers if I use a cross-over to roll off the lower frequencies that my main speakers are now having to produce. The subwoofers will be more important in reproducing the frequency range that blends with the mains; perhaps 70 to 90 Hz instead of the 50 to 70 Hz range with my current set up. From what I've read and from my own experience there is likely to be some benefit from having stereo subwoofers in that frequency range.
I could be pleasantly surprised to find that summed dual subwoofers would work just fine with the mains rolled off. And I suppose that I could just buy the P5 and see what happens. However, I don't have that kind of cash to experiment with. Instead, I'd like to find an affordable preamp (or integrated) that offers a mains cross-over feature with stereo sub/pre- output.
Regards,
Tom
You can optimize each sub, but on strong side signals they won't be able to "back" each other up, the way mono subs would. On the other hand, with bass traps and EQ, it's quite likely you won't notice much of a difference anyway.
I'm not sure what you mean about the stereo imaging suffering. Make yourself happy.
Best,
Erik
I'm not really sure what you mean by mono subs "backing" each other up.
When I mention stereo imaging I'm referring to the placement of instruments and singers within the soundstage. I'm one of those audiophiles that enjoys the perception of a full soundstage image, particularly with acoustic performances. Bass frequencies are more omnidirectional, especially at the lowest frequencies produced by a subwoofer, but at the upper range of subwoofer output, depending on where the cross-over range is set, there can be spatial clues that contribute to imaging.
Right now my mains are running full range with the subs rolled off at 60 Hz. What I'm trying to figure out is how to experiment with limiting the low frequencies produced by the mains and raising the roll off frequency of the subs to perhaps 70 to 80 Hz. My understanding is that subwoofers can have harmonic output that extends well into the directional frequencies so there are likely to be even more spatial clues within and above that new higher frequency range. If I use summed/mono subwoofer outputs I may be missing those clues.
Or not. I'm just doing my homework and asking questions before spending money on experiments.
Regards,
Tom
So, two subwoofers, playing the same signal in a room can be flatter as they fill in the nulls and cancel the peaks. EQ and bass traps should still be used. That's what I mean by "backing up" or rather I should have said "filling in."
And, this is what I mean by properly integrated. VERY FEW sub users have properly integrated subs. PROPERLY integrated you could not tell 1 or 2 subs in a room, so long as they were not distoring, nor could you tell where they are coming from. However, since most listeners have never heard properly integrated subs, they think I'm talking about Bigfoot or the Chupacabra. They haven't heard it so don't believe it's real. These are also the same who think a sub can't sound as good as a planar or ESL.
My suggestion is, as always, start with 1 sub. Spend the time to integate it well, and see if you still want a second. You may find yourself so tired out after one the second seems like too big of a hassle. :)
Best,
Erik
Thanks for the advice, Erik but it's too late, I've already spent years getting things to where I like them. '-)
I've gone from a single, passive, down-firing driver/radiator to a single, passive, ported, front-firing driver to a single, powered, sealed, front-firing driver to a pair of powered, sealed, front-firing drivers with built-in DSP. I've tried subs in corners, front walls, back walls, side walls, inboard and outboard of the mains, built-in subwoofer speaker-level and line-level cross-overs, and every possible combination therein. I've read books and articles and forum discussions and used acoustic modeling to learn what I can about speaker placement. After all that, I believe that I now have a set up that sounds about as good as I can get without using external cross-overs or DSP. The subwoofers compliment, not dominate, the mains.
But it's that last bit of refinement that I'm after and am wanting to get other perspectives on integrating dual subwoofers: stereo vs mono?
Apparently Parasound believes that dual mono subwoofers are all that is needed for the cross-over feature in a preamp costing $1100. I'm wondering how much more money is needed to get stereo subwoofer capabilities and is the expense worth it?
Regards,
Tom
FWIW, I have experimented (and still do) with multiple subs but have never found an advantage for stereo configuration unless the main speakers are small and are incapable of significant output below 120/120Hz. In fact, the advantages already offered for the use of mono subs is granted and there are advantages to having them EQ-ed in mono, too (in most cases).If you really are committed to pursuing this, I would recommend one of the miniDSP 2x4 devices to handle crossover and EQ in a vastly more competent way.
Edits: 10/12/16
Hi, Kal,
Thanks for the insight and advice. My Dynaudio Contour S1.4 speakers are reasonably good down to perhaps 60-80 Hz and I'd like to see if I can improve their performance by removing the workload below that using a cross-over. I don't like the results using the subs cross-over thus my interest in the Parasound P5 preamp or Integrated amp.
The miniDSP Dirac Live analog unit caught my attention based on a recent discussion you've had on another forum. For $800 I could have not only the ability to set the lower limits of my mains but also fine-tune the overall output to account for room acoustics. I've done just about everything I can without spending a bunch of money on external cross-overs and room treatments. The Dirac Live unit seems like a very reasonably priced alternative.
Any thoughts on the benefits of spending more money for the convenience of the Dirac Live vs miniDSP unit?
Regards,
Tom
DiracLive will not do crossovers. However, there are miniDSP units that will do DL and crossovers.
This looks like it would work perfectly for what I want to accomplish. And it's half the price of the P5. :-)
DDRC-24 for 2.1 or 2.2 configurationThanks!
Tom
Edits: 10/12/16
If you look at the actual schematics of most of those preamps the sub woofer is either a summed channel or simply just an internal take off of the preamp out jack.
Stereo subs benefit under some circumstances. Like larger rooms or if the monitor / sub crossover must be higher than one would like to admit.
If you're in a small-ish room or your speakers can get down to a decent frequency then one really should do the trick. And this is coming from a guy that is in a 12x12 bedrooms system that wants two. But really can't fit two.
I wouldn't get too wrapped up in this. The plate amp and sub itself do the heavy lifting and integration work. If not then you have the wrong sub/subs.
Hi, airtime,
I don't think I have the wrong subs. They are connected via the pre-out leads on my integrated amp and have variable roll-off and built-in DSP. They work great in my listening room. The feature I'd like to try on the P5 is the built-in cross-over for the stand-mounted speakers so I can run them without the lowest bass frequencies. Unfortunately the P5 doesn't have a separate pre-out and the sub outputs are both summed.
So my question is why aren't stereo subwoofer outputs provided? Cost? The irony is that they included stereo subwoofer inputs for the HT bypass.
Regards,
Tom
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