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I'm not trying to start another "Class D" vs "others" war.
I am curious as to why we see so many Class D amps but relatively few Class D integrated amps.
Maybe I'm not looking in the right places?
I know of Wyred4Sound and maybe NAD has a Class D integrated? Who else, besides the multitude of low power cheapie boxes from eBay / China?
Thanks.
Follow Ups:
EMOTIVA is apparently going to bring one to market fairly soon.
Maybe 100 a side? Check out the press release if you care.
It will be ICE based.
Too much is never enough
I've heard good things from a couple of trusted sources about the NuPrime IDA-16 and IDA-8
I really love my Devialet 200 integrated amp!
There is also the Gato Audio DIA 250s, but it has a built in DAC. A lot of integrated amps seem to be going this route. I know that could be a problem. But that's the trend.
Hey Abe. I've been following these class-d flame wars here for quite a while. I'll save my opinions for that topic for another thread.
In the meantime, I heard this at Axpona 2015 and thought it sounded quite good. It's ICE power based and a all in one so I doubt it will replace your Manleys, but it was nice sounding. Not sure if it's better than the earlier suggested Stello though.
I guess it depends on what you want it for. If you want it for computer speakers, then fine or even to add stereo to a TV for movie sound then ok too. For serious hifi listening, nope nothing...not even the new Devialets, which are probably the best D out there.
The April Music Stello Ai700 is an excellent sounding Class D integrated amplifier. At least the one I heard at RMAF sounded quite spectacular to me. It was driving some very good speakers, though.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
However, I'm talking about only one Class D Integrated, the April Music Stello Ai700. Have you even heard that one?
I have heard many ICE powered amps, which is what the Stello is according to 6moons, so I can safely dismiss this one as well I think. Every one that I heard has a similar signature and I am pretty confident that this one won't be substantially different.
Well, it sounded good to me!
as you say...Given your all SS system it seems tone is not a high priority for you and then I can sort of understand what you liked about the Stello. If you listen to the "Ice" sound a while then you realize what is missing and the dryness in the upper mids/highs is simply not right. Read what Martin Colloms has to say about Ice based amps when he reviewed one of the Bel Cantos (he gave it and all the Class D abysmal ratings).
What comprises "simply not right" is subjective. Saying that it doesn't sound like "live" music is meaningless because live sound exists only in the moment . In recollection of live sound is a melding of live sound experiences in one's mind and therefore highly subjective and unreliable from another person's POV.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
My opinion is meaningless, but I too, had a wrongness in the HF end of things with an ICE based integrated. I had the PSAudio GCC250 which uses the ASP modules.
This is not a 'quick' opinion, but rather after several years of ownership and going thru EVERY possible setup option with my panels.
And I'm not saying it didn't pass the 'live' test, since I do NOT hear nearly enough live music to make that a reference point.
I have my own theory of what was wrong, but that's for another time.
Too much is never enough
Who is advocating "caramel" coated sound?? That is the opposite end of the spectrum distortion. Obviously you have reading comprehension issues about the material I post here.
You have been privileged to hear many very high-end tube and solid-state SE amplfiers -- from such equipment I would expect very few compromises.Nevertheless the typical tube amp is popular as much, or likely far more, because it delivers 2nd or 3rd order HD that because it doesn't produce so much high-order HD.
Personally I'd like to hear Benchmark's AHB2 amp that has virtually unmeasurably low distortion according John Atkinson. YES, I am sure that it wound NOT sound like the typical tube or SE amp.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
Edits: 11/03/15 11/03/15 11/03/15
"because it delivers 2nd or 3rd order HD that because it doesn't produce so much high-order HD"
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
The tubey colorations that you are eluding to have little to nothing to do with 2nd and 3rd order harmonics, which are basically inaudible up to several %.
They are usually caused by use of inadequate output transformers and/or negative feedback (yes most tube amps still use some of that...especially cheap ones). Inadequate iron saturates and makes a whole host of harmonics but as this saturation is from the bass it pollutes the bass up through the midrange and gives that "tubey" or "caramel" coloration. Then if a fairly high amount of negative feedback is used you can get "glassy" highs as well. A tube amp with negative feedback and decent output iron might sound simply more like a SS amp (think Octave or some ARC amps). Inadequate iron with modest to no feedback might sound darkish or caramel colored. An amp with good iron and a highly linear circuit without feedback will sound natural and open with tight punchy bass.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Yep , spent some time with a class-D Crown xls2000 , in my setup it was, well , not acceptable , bad timbre , sizzly top end and shrunken between the speaker sound stage , Just really sounds like a bad CD , suprised as quite a few others like the sound and i bought a few to try in the HT.Inexpensive A/B is much better than this inexpensive class-D for audio , well in my setup..
Edits: 11/01/15
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Heard Mola Molas twice now and with excellent speakers but there is no music in Mola mola land.
Cab, you are alive ..!
Thank god , most likely the thought of another class-D amplifier making it and Kuribo's presence brought you out of hiding .... :)
Sweeet .....
I was on holiday getting a tan in Greece...everyone needs a break once in a while...even from the asylum ;-).
Just remembering your long-time opponent ;-)
It's foolish to believe and follow everything written by audio mavens. For my part I listen only to please myself and like only what suits my taste. After all, the only person I need to impress is myself...
try it! you know you want to!
Crayon Audio has a well reviewed one. Google it.
IMO a good Class AB is still much better for SQ & cheaper than any Class D switch mode radiating amp .
Edits: 11/01/15 11/01/15
Why do you feel the need to pollute every class d thread with your irrelevant and useless opinion about the superiority of class ab? You aren't being helpful, just obnoxious.
try it! you know you want to!
I assume you favour Class D rubbish, I do not like to see audiophiles being misled. so my advice remains avoid all Class D amps and buy a good Class AB one,
nt
try it! you know you want to!
This is the best that I have heard; however, I do not have extensive experience in this area.
Terry
hello Terry, please I need some information about an old post of Quad ESL and speaker cables,
please can you reply to me? thanks!!!
To me, class D amps seem like a natural for integrateds. Many have high gain and sticking in a passive pre (like W4S) shouldn't be too difficult.
Jack
Absolutely , try the Devialet , it will be your best amp yet ....
Geez man is this answer too obvious? The Peachtree novaSE discrete Class-A preamp output stage combines the musicality of Class-A design with the muscle of Class-D amplification
Costs less than the shun mook mpingo discs beside it. Lovely sound with my near field monitors. Don't even use the tube.
Religion is the world's oldest profession
Ah yes, I forgot that their newer generation products went Class D.
*
I have the Trio C100 integrated. B&O ICEpower outputs, gain cell preamp section. 100 wpc at 8 Ohms, 200 at 4 Ohms, 3 line level inputs. Remote volume, muting and input selection.
Opus 33 1/3
I think it's a little Earlier, but I had the GCC-250 with a pair of the ASP modules.
And, the Gain Cell. I took a look, once, and it is NON-Fixable. Potted in Expoxy.
Too much is never enough
classDaudio sells some integrateds.
I own two of them.
Having gain controls doesn't make the integrateds IMO.
I DIY'd a Class D Audio amp with one of their SDS-258 modules -- it is really very good for the price.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
fair enough, you have a point. it ain't much fun running over to the amp to twiddle the gain knobs on a regular basis.
I did use it with a very famous and well respected tube preamp and it sure didn't hurt the sound to do that.
ken
The Stello Ai700 Integrated Amplifier sounds really great. I heard it at RMAF and I was very impressed with its sound quality.
Best regards,
John Elison
What means integrated ?? Phono capability inbuilt?
Diminishing demand for that.
Most chip amps do nicely on direct input, typically only a decent attenuator is all that's rq'd Or desired.
Truth is Best (Chip) Amps are DIY adventures...Always have been :-)
The Better bespoke current Lm3886 based ones, humble Many genuinely overpriced "famous name" amps.
Instantly obvious in the hearing.. Try it, it won't hurt you.
Forget gainclones, those while interesting back then, were not memorably good.. by most yardsticks.
Current evolutions are of Composite toplogies.
Moderne times Indeed.
Edits: 10/28/15
Integrated Amp:
The power amp and linestage is in one chassis.
A "chip amp" isn't necessarily a "Class D" switching amp. The LM3886 is a power Op-Amp.
I'm more curious about Class D Integrated Amps. Thanks.
Something from Best Buys perhaps OR the local Audio Weenie Emporium ?
Where the unctuous Sales type will say 'anything' to get a Commission.
OR perhaps a Magazine reviewer who earns subsistence Wages.. yet will Shill anything at all.. for Beer tokens??.
I've Replaced an se 45 Meshplate amp And a Paired Set of 5k$ SS amps on MY Tannoy Grfs (not some dorky Prestige Tannoy Imposters)
With a bespoke Lm3886 'Op Amp 'variant')
I was simply Astounded at the Sound Quality "improvement".
Haven't looked back.. even once... despite the previous gear simply collecting Dust.
A slammed shut mindset.. Does have drawbacks.. Mate.
Nor overly Clever to Not even explore genuine opportunities.
Everyone else here understood my question and the conversation has long left you behind. Good day.
So what is the big deal about class D ampsverses just a plain old good sounding amp in general?
Are there any sonic signatures that are unique to a class D vs a Class AB?
Is there any advantage of using a class D with preamp and speaker matching?
etc????
charles
Theoretically class D amps could approach perfect linearity, ie ultra low distortion. The devil is in the implementation. It's not easy to get them really quiet, especially put into service in systems full of gear traditionally known to be exceptionally poor at emi immunity.
I understand. I own a nice 'traditional' integrated amp in the Ayre AX-7e. It sounds wonderful.I'm just curious to know which brands currently make Class D integrated amps in the range of maybe $1500 to $5000. I see so many Class D power amps, but not so many Class D integrateds.
The responses so far for current production models include:
- Primare I32 (I didn't know Primare went Class D)
- Rogue Sphinx
- Bel Canto C5i
- Wyred4Sound mINTNot that many. Oh, I already ruled out the Devialet D-Premier on it's $15K price and looks. ;-)
I believe the Jeff Rowland Continuum S2 is Class D but it's $9K +. That Jeff Rowland chassis looks sweet to me compared to the Devialet bathroom scale.
Edits: 10/28/15
I too think that the Rowland is the best of the bunch...to MY ears, all Class D's that I've heard don't make the grade, but I'm sure some day they will improve into the top category. I remember the hype about CD's. I heard the top (I think it was a SonyES), and couldn't believe anyone could be serious about it at all.
Going back a few years, PSAudio made 3 of 'em. GCC series by name and they came with the reaonable ASP modules from B&O and the proprietary Gain Cell input / switching circuit.
I had the GCC250 (middle) for several years and it was fine.
…...
Too much is never enough
.
love my tact 2000 series, multiple digital in, analogue board was available. Poor factory support, but a steal used. Design still being marked by L?
Good imaging, timbre. Bass blew away my mega-amp Innersound
of course have not listened to all the rest
didn't mean to post twice... system crashed in middle
Been running a Tact 2000 series, for almost a decade. multiple digital inputs, some have analogue board. Sweet, images well, fantastic bass. Blew away my Innersound megawatt monster. Poor factory support, design taken over by ???Lindquist???. Outstanding online review. cheap used.
...I'll be posting my impressions of the Gilmore and Merrill class D amps next week.
I'm sorry. I was just weighing myself. All it says is CD 49dB, but that certainly can't be my real weight!
Edits: 10/28/15 10/28/15
Nice choice! You jogged my memory and I now remember seeing the Devialet D-Premier review but I had to dismiss it on two counts:
Price and looks!
$15K is out of my league and besides, it looks like a bathroom scale that my wife might want to stand on. ;-)
It's definitely not in the eBay Chinese cheapie category but I was thinking somewhere in the $1500 - $5000 range or so +/-
Even though they're not integrated amps, I'm looking forward to your thoughts on the Gilmore and Merrill amps.
tried Devialet D Premier at Home due to rave reviews in HFN & RR . preferred my 20 year old Class AB amplifier.
is this really class D?
nt
I wrote about the Gilmore Raptors a long time ago. I said they were very close to the sound of a good tube amp and at $2500 a pair for mono blocks they should be much better known. I eventually went back to tube amps but the friend I sold them to loves them
Alan
I tried the Rogue Sphinx, $1000.
It had hum in my system, even with cheater plug,
and got too loud by about 8:30 on the vol control,
was too "Hot" for me.
But the Hum was a problem for me.
I have a Sphinx and cured the hum problem by putting a "Ebtech Hum X" between by power conditioner and the Sphinx. It was about $55 from Amazon.
I really like my Bel Canto C5i. Even posted a review on Audioasylum.
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