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This is an informal review, not done using the format demanded by the Reviews facility offered by Audio Asylum.I've recently been looking for a solid state amplifier as an alternative to my 845-based Single Ended Triode monoblocks (Consonance Cyber 845s) with my Avantgarde speakers. Why? Because I thought that I'd have it on much more of the time and would listen to more music. Partly as valves (I call them valves, you probably call them tubes) don't last for ever and are costly to replace, partly as it takes time to switch them on and wait for warm-up and partly because Avantgarde's own electronics are solid state.
Avantgarde Uno speakers have very high efficiency (102 dB) and so don't need megawatts to power them. Consequently a very high signal to noise ratio is needed. The SETs are pretty quiet but the Benchmark is reported to be MUCH quieter - at 130 dB possibly the quietest amplifier on the market.
OK - I did a bit of research by reading and asking questions here and on AVS forums, plus I read reviews, although these were few far between for the Benchmark. I was most interested to read a couple of long threads on AVS initiated by an Avantgarde Trio owner who had recently bought the Benchmark and reckons it's the best amp he's ever had with his Trios, including many valve and much more costly SS amps. His descriptions were pretty convincing, so I took the plunge. Here in UK, the "month on approval" scheme doesn't exist and there are no nearby dealers to borrow Benchmark kit from. I just bought it on the basis that, if it was so fantastic powering Trios, it must be equally brilliant with Unos.
It duly arrived and was installed between my recently acquired NAD M12 streamer / DAC / preamp (with BluOS MDC Module) and the speakers. My music is stored on a NAS, so nothing else is needed.
When evaluating new equipment, I prefer to just turn off old equipment and listen to nothing but the new stuff for a couple of weeks or more, rather than do side-by-side comparisons straight away. This is because one gets used to a particular sound and a new and unfamiliar sound is often instinctively less well received.
After 3 weeks of listening only to the Benchmark, my thoughts were that the bass was a bit better, the background noise is completely non-existent and it generally sounded pretty good, although nothing spectacularly better than before.
Now the real test! I made a short playlist of 6 tracks that I chose because I know them well and they were good for evaluation purposes - some with prodigious bass, others with pure voices, piano, almost inaudible delicacies, etc. I played them first using the Benchmark. I was inclined to listen to the first minute of each track, then push on to the next, but I stuck to it. Then I switched to the SETs. Although these had not been used for some weeks and the output valves really should be replaced with newer and probably better ones, they immediately rendered the music much more open and exciting to listen to. I was not once tempted to skip on to the next track, despite the fact that I'd heard them all half an hour earlier.
I don't pretend to be a professional reviewer (in fact this is the first time I've been moved to review any equipment), so can't explain exactly the differences, but it was akin to listening to a live acoustic performance versus listening to music through loudspeakers. The difference was not slight - it was dramatic. There is no "tingle factor" and no goose-bumps when listening with the Benchmark. If anyone says that the Benchmark is more accurate - frankly I don't care - I listen to music with my ears, not an oscilloscope! It was dull and lifeless by comparison. If you listen to live music there's inevitably background noise (you're sharing the auditorium with other people) and the acoustics are possibly not as good as a recording studio, but despite all the drawbacks, live music is so much more exciting to listen to. Similarly with the valve amps, an evening listening to music is thoroughly enjoyable. With the Benchmark it was little better than loud background music. Furthermore, the inclination was to turn down the volume of the Benchmark and turn up the SETs - inaccuracies, slight background noise and all! Music should be a thrilling experience and the Benchmark sadly doesn't offer thrills.
I'm sure the Benchmark is a splendid amp when compared with other SS amps, in particular with other "digital" amps. Certainly it's streets ahead of my Red Wine Audio Signature 30.2 LFP-V amplifier (Tripath-based). Benchmark may use the best digital technology around (THX's AAA), but for me, the proof of a good amplifier is how much I enjoy the music and sadly the Benchmark bears no comparison with a good SET. Maybe it's unfair comparing a state-of-the-art $3000 amp with a positively primitive SET design costing twice as much, but I don't think so. Maybe the Benchmark is better suited to lesser speakers that are themselves unlikely to excite in the way that Avantgardes do.
The Benchmark has plenty of good points though. Apart from the aforementioned very low noise level of 130 dB, it offer fully balanced circuit, professional standard Speakon and domestic standard binding posts, a 3-way gain switch (ideal for those with high efficiency speakers or with low level sources), it's small and fuel-efficient (keeps cool at any volume level) and is available in silver or black, free-standing or rack-mounted. All great on paper but disappointing to listen to. Perhaps the manufacturer of professional equipment primarily intended for studios has to be more interested in measured results than the pleasure it offers listeners.
I hope that others with Benchmark amps (or perhaps Benchmark themselves) can respond honestly to my findings or explain why I should be so disappointed with what I hear from my Benchmark. Or perhaps someone could offer further suggestions for a solid state amplifier that would do justice to my speakers.
Equipment Used:
Source - FLAC files on RipNAS
Streamer / DAC / Preamp - NAD M12
- [Sonos and Mark Levinson 390S as older units also used]
Power Amps - Benchmark AHB2
- Consonance Cyber 845 SET monoblocks
- Red Wine Audio Signature 30.2 LFP-V
Speakers - Avantgarde Uno Series 2 horn speakers with SUB225s
Cables - RCA coax digital
- Canare StarQuad XLR balanced to Benchmark (as Benchmark's interconnects)
- Nordost Blue Heaven interconnects to SET
- Chord Company Odyssey speaker cables
Peter
Edits: 07/02/15Follow Ups:
Peter,
This is John Siau, VP of Benchmark.
Thanks for taking the time to document your experience with the Benchmark AHB2.
The AHB2 is well suited to use with high-efficiency speakers. The low noise allows noise-free operation with very high efficiency speakers.
Of equal importance, the AHB2 virtually eliminates the zero-crossing distortion that is normally produced conventional Class AB push-pull output stages. This is especially important for high efficiency speakers because the amplifier will spend so much time in low power region where crossover distortion can become most audible. The AHB2 behaves like a Class-A amplifier in that it is free from this very objectionable form of distortion.
But the AHB2 isn't for everyone. If you prefer an amplifier that enhances your listening experience then the AHB2 is not for you.
Your SET amplifier is specifically intended to add the euphonic qualities produced by the single-ended tube topology. This specific character is produced by the unique non-linearities that are characteristic of single-ended tube topology. The SET topology provides significant coloring of the music in a way that many people enjoy. If this is what you prefer, then you will be very unhappy with most other power amplifiers.
The AHB2 and SET amplifiers are on the very opposite end of the spectrum. You are completely correct when you say that the difference is dramatic.
The AHB2 is a much different listening experience. In contrast to an SET amplifier, the AHB2 is designed to be virtually distortion-free. The output of the AHB2 will sound exactly like the input. The AHB2 will not enhance or improve what goes in.
Please understand that this is a mater of taste. Many people enjoy the coloration produced by SET amplifiers.
Amplifiers can fall into three categories:
1) Amplifiers that add nothing to the audio
2) Amplifiers that add musically-disturbing distortion
3) Amplifiers that add musically pleasing coloration
The AHB2 falls into category 1, your SET amplifier falls into category 3.
Technically "coloration" is distortion but I think the word "distortion" gives a completely misleading description of something that may actually enhance the sound.
Again, it comes down to a matter of preference.
Hi John
Firstly, thanks very much for taking the trouble to reply to my posting. There were posters here who chuckled at the suggestion that you might reply!
What you say is of course basically true and I'm sure your AHB2 amplifier is, according to measurements, about as accurate as any amplifier. The very low noise level is of course of value to owners of high efficiency speakers such as my Avantgardes. BUT - these amplifiers are best confined to the recording studio and other professional users if the result is a boring listen.
In the homes of music lovers, music should sound dynamic and exciting and without the temptation to either advance to the next track hoping for more entertainment or resorting to the off switch and turning on the TV. This is sadly precisely the situation with the Benchmark. I'd rather be doing something else than forcing myself to listen to music that I KNOW should sound much better through my costly speakers.
Some years ago I bought a pair of active ATC speakers that I'd been looking forward to owning, but was only then in a position to afford. They were to replace original KEF Reference 107s. Installed in a 330 sq ft room with 10 ft ceilings and no parallel walls (an ideal room acoustically) they sounded dreadful. I'm sure they were accurate and just the job as monitors in a studio, but in a home situation, I wanted to push them back another 20 feet. They were far too much "in your face". The Benchmark offers a rather familiar problem - it's just not designed for, nor likely to sound as one would hope for, in a domestic situation. I sold the ATCs and bought the Avantgardes after carefully reading Stereophile's comprehensive Best Speaker of the Year review. These are the antithesis of ATC and unlikely ever to find their way into recording studios, but they get the hairs on the back of your neck bristling with excitement when fired up.
I'm sure most of us would prefer to listen to live music in a concert hall with all its acoustic difficulties than in a recording studio without all the coloration that the former suffers from. Perhaps not suffers from but is enhanced by. I want an amplifier that does what a concert hall does for music, rather than what a recording studio monitor room does. As with live music, I'm more than happy to accept a degree of coloration, inaccuracy or distortion (call it what you will) to enjoy the excitement of the music. In my view, an amplifier at home should, without taking anything away from the music, render it in such a way that we thoroughly enjoy the listening experience and never want to switch it off.
Rather reluctantly (because I love the package) I'll be returning my Benchmark to Audio Emotion today and renewing my search for an amplifier that offers a much more enjoyable domestic listening experience. Perhaps the SET is too coloured but if coloration is necessary to get my speakers to delight those who listen to them, then give me some coloration!
Peter
Was the amplfier broken in ..? Very essential in some designs not just the break in hrs but also the number of on/off cycles involved ..
Regards
Yes, as I described in the original post, I listened only to the Benchmark for 3 weeks before any comparative listening. Still the same now after a few more weeks. It's the fundamental design that seems to have produced an accurate, but dull amplifier.
Peter
An "accurate, but dull" amplifier? If it is accurate, then it cannot be dull, bright, or anything else. The Benchmark approaches the state-of-the-art in regard to conventional specifications. SET amplifiers produce noise and distortion levels orders of magnitude greater than the Benchmark, generate far more heat and are less reliable. If frank coloration is required from the amplifier for listening enjoyment in a particular instance, a thorough examination of the associated source components, loudspeaker and listening room seems prudent.
Sorry, but I beg to differ. Would you like to listen to a band or orchestra that was playing in an open field? Or playing in an anechoic chamber? I'd suggest that in both cases you'd hear the music totally without external influences (accurate), but it would be drearily dull. I don't want to listen to music that way. That's why I have horn speakers with SET amplifiers. However, as I said in my original post, I'd like to go solid state but to retain "life" in my music - the life that one hears in more normal listening circumstances such as a consort hall or band venue, complete with reverberation, sound reflections and all the other outside influences that makes music exciting to listen to.
Peter
My experience with the Benchmark AHB2 driving sensitive speakers is somewhat different. In my current setup with Benchmark DAC2 HGC/AHB2, I am driving a pair of Klipschorns with a 105 dB sensitivity so in that sense they would be comparable to the Avantgarde speakers.
In my 25 years of of experience with mostly tube amplifiers of all sorts, I have never come across a more emotionally involving amplifier than the AHB2. It is exactly because it doesn't "interpret" the music by adding coloration or any artificial sense of ambience or reverberation that it is so fascinating to listen to. The AHB2's ability to reproduce the timbre and texture of acoustic instruments is beyond anything I have experienced before - just listen to brass or woodwind! - and the precision with which it reveals the actual acoustic properties of the recording venue, whether it be a small café or a concert hall, is second to none. At least to my ears. I think what captured my attention from the very first instant was how honest and genuine the sound is. If it is in the recording, it is there, otherwise not.
This amplifier keeps me on the edge of my seat in excitement and anticipation even with recordings that I have known for years and not thought very highly of, so in my view it is the very antithesis of boring. I don't remember having ever been so moved by reproduced music as with this Benchmark combo. FYI, I almost exclusively listen to classical music and much of it in hi-rez, but I have to say that well-recorded CDs are also much more enjoyable and listenable now than before.
Karsten
> This amplifier keeps me on the edge of my seat in excitement and anticipation even with recordings that I have known for years and not thought very highly of, so in my view it is the very antithesis of boring
I really wish that I shared this experience. Do you think my AHB2 may be a duff specimen? Surely not - these are mass produced and should all sound identical. If you've read my original posting "REVIEW - Benchmark AHB2 with Avantgarde" you'll see that my experience is hugely different from yours. I'm inclined to turn down the volume or move on to the next track and am certainly not on the edge of my seat - and I'm not a tube enthusiast!
Why are we hearing things so differently? Either my AHB2 is a duff, or my tube amps are much better than any you've had in your system. I doubt either of these is the case, so why the discrepancy? I'm keen to find out.
Peter
I understand your concern, and I am also keen to find out about this discrepancy, but maybe it is just that we, at least to some extent, have different preferences. There is, I believe, nothing right and wrong or any absolutes. I don't even know if there is an absolute if we were to attend the same concert and listen to the same "absolute sound". It is almost a philosophical question though an immensely interesting one. I am not saying that everything comes down to a matter of taste. I am not in favour of an entirely relativistic approach to this issue as this would somehow stand in the way of any real progress in the research and development of reproduced music. In other words, something's got to be right and I think at least part of it can be measured.
There is no denying that the AHB2 measures extremely well. I am not saying that measurements is all there is to audio, but I strongly believe at least part of the reason some people find that it is closer to "truth" is that is that it has such a low noise floor and distortion. It quite simply lets you hear more and without the disturbance of a distorted signal, whether this distortion is "benign" or not. I have no doubt that I hear deeper into the recording than with other amplifiers I have listened to in various setups. I have listed some of those amplifiers elsewhere in this thread.
One, to me at least, important aspect is the nature and quality of live music and I am here only referring to the unamplified sound from acoustic instruments in various spaces. When I am attending a concert, it almost always strikes me how unassuming or unpretentious the sound is and it usually leaves me with the impression that most systems are larger than life. Listen to a string quartet on most tube amplifiers and it will sound big, blooming and embellished, or listen to it on most solid state amps and it will sound opaque and "twisted". I have to stress that this is my personal observation - not an absolute.
What I enjoy about the AHB2 is that, at least to my ears, it is more honest. It is closer to this unassuming sound that I actually hear when I listen to a string quartet in real life. This is not to say that it does not make an impression. It does, in the same sense that the actual sound of the string quartet does in real life by allowing you to hear what is actually going on. It is hard to explain otherwise.
What is particularly interesting with the AHB2 though is that when music is on a larger scale, like a symphony orchestra, it has the same genuine character: it is dynamic and it expands, but in a controlled way that doesn't make you feel overwhelmed or stressed so that you are inclined to reach out for the volume control. Neither does it leave you underwhelmed because the dynamic shifts are so faithfully or convincingly reproduced that it is much easier to follow the composer's or conductor's intentions.
Karsten
Hello Kali,
nice to read you about the AHB2 !
Can you give a list of those other amplifiers you used and you can compre with the Benchmark (at least the nicer ones) ?
Thank you
Nicolas
Hi Nicolas
Among the best and most recent I have listened to on the Klipschorns are the Berning Siegfried 300B (SET and OTL) and the much smaller Berning MicroZOTL. They are both very good, but the AHB2 is more transparent and in my opinion more correct or true to how natural instruments and voices actually sound in real life. The low noise floor and lack of distortion are, of course, important contributing factors.
I have also listened to a at least one homemade, but excellent, 300B SET with this setup.
Further back, before the Klipschorns, I have had Atma-Sphere M-60s driving Oris horns and even before that various VTL amps and much more.
I hope this more or less answers your question.
One more remark about the sound of the AHB2. I think one of the reasons it draws you into the music the way it does is that it is able to reveal the microdynamics of a recording in such a way that you get a much deeper insight into the performance and interpretation of the particular work. One of the thrills of live music is that you can hear all those shades and nuances in both dynamics and timbre and this, I believe, is exactly the reason why this amplifier is so captivating. It is simply beautiful (this is the word that most often has come to mind), or rather the music is, but the AHB2 seems to stand very little in the way of it. I have to say that I have never heard anything quite like this from an amplifier, but of course I haven't heard everything out there.
If I were to sum up my impressions in a few words it would be something like: crisp, fresh and alive as well as expanding, both on a larger scale and into the smallest possible detail, but most importantly: tone or timbre.
Karsten
Thanks Kali for those your detailed answer :-).
Nicolas
Hi Kali and thanks for describing your experience with Benchmark amplifier. It's most odd that you are on the edge of your seat while listening via the Benchmark, while I'm wanting to push on to the next track!
My music is CDs ripped to FLAC and stored on a NAS drive, then the NAD M12 fitted with BluOS board for streaming. I listen to less and less classical now and more smaller-scale music - jazz blues, etc - a lot of female voice. In my system the Benchmark isn't right and I was most disappointed that this was the case as it otherwise has lots of great features. I don't find it reproduced individual instruments and nuances in the way you experience - more akin to background music and lacking in the detail that makes good music so exciting. I'm wondering if there may have been something wrong with my individual amp? It's now back with the dealer though.
Thanks again for sharing your experience.
Peter
"Sorry, but I beg to differ. Would you like to listen to a band or orchestra that was playing in an open field? Or playing in an anechoic chamber? I'd suggest that in both cases you'd hear the music totally without external influences (accurate), but it would be drearily dull. I don't want to listen to music that way. That's why I have horn speakers with SET amplifiers. However, as I said in my original post, I'd like to go solid state but to retain "life" in my music - the life that one hears in more normal listening circumstances such as a consort hall or band venue, complete with reverberation, sound reflections and all the other outside influences that makes music exciting to listen to."It may be true that the colorations in an SET amplifier may complement some deficiency in this particular loudspeaker and/or listening room. The high output impedance of an SET amplifier causes significant response variation into different loudspeakers making it something of an equalizer. The high second harmonic distortion may result in upper midrange "bloom" that can be seductive in some circumstances. Add these together and of course an SET amplifier will sound different than many other amplifiers! Whatever it may be, accurate it is not.
Some audiophiles have adopted the position that solid state amplification is inherently cold and sterile. This is simply not the case. Accurate loudspeakers positioned correctly in a listening environment with good acoustic properties (not an anechoic chamber!) and driven by quality solid state electronics can reproduce all of the ambiance and dynamics captured in a recording.
Modern electronics can offer surround effects and other forms of processing with the intention of improving the sound. Dolby ProLogic II Music, DTS NeoX and numerous other processing modes can add significant ambiance to dry recordings and be manipulated to alter the center image size or other characteristics. Parametric equalization can be found in many preamplifier/processors and a wide variety of external equalizers are available. The difference between these forms of signal manipulation and the colorations introduced by some amplifiers, cables and other components is that they can be defeated when fidelity to the recording is paramount.
It is perfectly acceptable to incorporate colored components into a system in search of enjoyable sound. If an SET amplifier brings joy to your ears, have at it. It is, however, inappropriate to berate an amplifier or any other component because it lacks coloration. This is a disservice to other listeners and lessens the credibility of the audiophile community.
Edits: 07/26/15
Cawson , I'm familiar with what you speak , good luck on the amp trail , first watt may have what you are looking for ...
Regards
Uhh Ohh, incoming ....!!!!
Front row Seat .... Check
Popcorn ... Check
I will say a prayer for you Benchmark Bro , morricab and the toobites in ...... 1,2.......
Posting on this forum is always a bit of an issue for me as I don't have the bucks for megadollars equipment and I try to get the best with my restricted budget. Pardon me if my equipment seems rather mundane compared to most of what i read here ;)
Having owned horn speakers for the last 15 years however (heavily modded Klipsch LaScala), and tried numerous amplifiers to drive them, I can say without a doubt that the lower the amplifier power, the better the sound with horns. Now I could never really try tubes, with the notable exception of a low end AMC integrated (EL34 push-pull) wich was one of the worst sounding amp I ever owned. I don't try tubes because I listen to all kinds of music but I like to deejay in the weekends and throw parties at my place, and my main system serves both purposes. Reliability must be high and my electronics are on 24/24.
All "high power" SS amps I've owned sounded flat, cold and lifeless on the LaScala (with the exception of the Technics SE-A5 wich fared far better than most, but still proved a bit lifeless when compared to lesser powered alternatives); second best I've heard was my now defunct Sony TA-E86N in pure class A mode (18watt/channel), wich sounded great but a little too warm and fuzzy to be "real"; very best I've heard is what I'm currently own, a tripath-based Trends TA10.1, upgraded with better caps and resistors, and driven by a rare Korn&Macway SP100 preamp. It pushes 2 x 5watts if you wanna stay in decent levels of distortion, but so far it's always been loud enough for all uses, including parties...
All that to say, if I suddenly had the cash for higher end alternatives, I would start by trying a First Watt, or maybe a low power Accuphase ClassA or something similar. I'm sure attracted to tubes, but for practical reasons, they're just not for everybody.
What are these high powered SS amps KanedaK ....?
Been horse trading solid state amps for years. searching for "that sound I like". Seems my personal taste was a simple vintage tube integrated amp.
Once that tube sound grabs you, any solid state amp simply seems like a filler until you get back to your tubes.
A good combo that I do enjoy is a tubed preamp and solid state amp. But again, my heart goes towards tubes.
Wow, seems a bit of a difference in opinion here.
Why can't we all just get along and listen to tubes!
All Amps are equal , some a little bit more ... :)
Have no issues with different topologies , I use all of them and they all work when used accordingly in the correct setup to showcase their strengths , Cab is the one fighting Bias drift ...
LOL
Regards..
That has never been my experience , at any level..
I have owned Both, Good solid and good tubes sound different, Better..? its all system dependent and taste, good sound can be done thru different avenues , for me , the tooby sound is magic for the first few hrs then Meh and I have never heard a tooby SOTA system beat a SS SOTA setup.
Never for me, its like wafering along with a V12, pleased with the smoothness and ease and then floor the pedal and Meh.
Regards..
In fact tubes do dynamic scaling better than SS for amps of similar power. Read the work from Peter Van Willensward on the matter. He published a few articles in Stereophile where he demonstrated that a tube amp can deliver voltage far in excess of its rated power with real music bursts. He was unable to duplicate it with synthesized signals.
http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/tech_amp_peak_01.shtml
http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/tech_amp_peak_02.shtml
"Listening to this CD renewed my curiosity about the puzzling perceived dynamic performance of valve amplifiers. I finally did what I should have done a long time ago: I hooked up my oscilloscope to one of the 'speaker outputs of my 300B amp and observed the screen while the disk was playing. Holy Moses, I saw something like 30 Volts peaks from an amp that on the testbench driven with sinewaves and loaded with an 8 ohms resistor never showed more than 14 Volts peak! More than twice the voltage technically supposed possible! You'd need a 50 Watt transistor amp to realize the same peaks my 9 Watt 300B launched without wincing at my 'speakers! "
Cab , another one bites the Dust .... From the web ,
Devialet 200:
".on loan for the weekend. I won't bore with all the audiophile-speak but suffice it to say it's a far cry from what I'm used to listening through...MC500 and MC501s. Not to say the MACs are bad but the 200 is in another league when it comes to definition so much so I'm not quite sure yet"
Download newest Firmware Cab , plug in , throw out d Toooby 's ... :)
The problem with this is that A) Macs are not tube amps and B) they are pretty bad sounding for what they cost.
Deterioation Deterioation Deterioation. Tubes equals heat & problems , a total waste of money.
My Class A hybrid makes a lot more heat than my tube amps. No matter what you claim, I have yet to hear a Class AB amp that betters a good Class A biased amp and I have heard enough of them to make such a generalization.
All amps deteriorate.
My Class AB amplifier is nearly 20 years old, still sounds excellent and I have yet to hear a better sounding ampifier and that includes all classes , A, AD, D, G, and antique valves, Class AB still best as far as I am concerned. Would have no interest whatsoever in a HOT Class A hybrid
Edits: 07/09/15
In what systems? The OP was referring to Trios; do the arguments for massive deterioration, heat, and reliability apply to the right amp for these speakers?
If one needs lots of power to run inefficient, weak, under-damped monkey coffins then solid state rules; the speakers are designed for such. By contrast, running 98dB+, low Q drivers in "over-damped" alignments - or with something like the Trios with active bass and very efficient drivers above that - allows you to use low(ish) power SET amps with conservatively run tubes. Deterioration and heat are minimal (no problem here 2A3 outputs in a high humidity Brisbane summer without aircon) and reliability need not be an issue.
Choose the right tools for the desired outcomes.
Regards,
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
If one needs lots of power to run inefficient, weak, under-damped monkey coffins then solid state rules; the speakers are designed for such.
- 91derlust
As oppose to hi efficiency, squaky , overdamped, cupped hands ,shout at you horns, then toobs rule ... :)
LOL
"As oppose to hi efficiency, squaky , overdamped, cupped hands ,shout at you horns, then toobs rule ... :)" A.Wayne
Nice - I like your sense of irony: there are still some curmudgeons perpetuating archaic hi-eff stereotype as universal Truth. As you know, it ain't necessarily so, but being dismissive of an approach apparently makes some folks feel more secure in their beliefs... Not that there is anything wrong with that. ;^)
Cheers,
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
"My Class AB amplifier is nearly 20 years old, still sounds excellent"
I doubt it.
Well I have tasted and continue to taste , what now ..? Still running SS , you will have to admit while there are good sounding toobs, there are some really bad sounding ones, even more so than bad SS ...
Me I prefer to stay away from bad sound regardless of toob or SS .....
"there are some really bad sounding ones, even more so than bad SS ..."
While I can agree with you that there are some bad sounding tube amps I have yet to hear a fully SS amp that I could live with so for me they are all bad to one degree or another. Qualifier, I have not heard any of the First Watt amps or the Tellurium Q amp yet. I would also be interested in hearing the Reimyo KAP777 since this is a company that made its name with arguably one of the very best 300B amps. However, I have heard all the latest and greatest from darTZeel, Vitus, Constellation, Pass Labs (their big beasties), not to mention big names from the past: Rowland, Levinson, Krell (lots of them), Musical Fidelity, McIntosh etc.
The only amps with transistor outputs that I have heard that I could live with are my NAT (although it is not my all-time favorite amp), Sphinx Project 14 and 16, Conrad Johnson Evo 2000 and the gear from Ypsilon (I have heard their mid level monos and their "entry" level integrated and they are amazingly good). Note, these are all hybrids. I kind of liked the BAT VK200 I had for a while but it was a bit dark sounding and so strayed a bit too much tonally for me. However, on my friend's (previously mine) Acoustat Spectra 2200s it was damn fine sounding...he was quite happy to get it.
So, I am not biased against the transistor per se, just how it is normally implemented, which is why the First Watt stuff is probably quite good. Afterall, my favorite amp that I can afford, the KR Audio products, are 2/3rds transistor (only the output is tube)! Amazing stuff though. However, again, it is simple, Class A, no loop or nested feedback added and maximized linearity through design and parts.
I still didn't see your response to the article links I posted. Based on this assessment my 15 watt PSET (that is at 1% THD according to a polish magazine) behaves more like a 100 watt transistor amp for peak voltage delivery. With 98db/speakers, I am unlikely ever to test that but maybe one day I will hook up my digital scope and see if I can duplicate what Peter has done.
Since morriicab mentioned First Watt in his post I decided to add my two cents worth. I used Cary 2a3 SET monoblocks to power the midrange and tweeter drivers of my triamplified DIY horn loaded speakers for eight or nine years. Then I tried out Nelson Pass built First Watt F-3 single ended class A JFET SS amps. The sound convinced me to sell the Carys and replace them with two First Watt F3 stereo amps. The freedom from tube anxiety is an added bonus.
Cab
I'm excited about you using your scope , Finally ..... :)
You sure talk a lot. I am wondering when you are going to show something on your scope or do you not have one?? Demanding proof from others when you can't provide some yourself is a no no in my book.
I am wondering when you are going to show something - Morricab
Speaking of Wondering ,I notice Morri, you are running an AT150mlx for your TT source, knowing how bright these can be and you using horns, it makes sense why you like low powered soft sounding on the top tooby's, an SS amp in your setup would be murder she wrote, the brightness would kill you and you of course would blame the amplfier (s) .
So I can believe you when you say it's good, I'm suggesting it's mostly a system synergy and can see why no SS amps would appeal to you with that source and associated cabling.
Regards..
Edits: 07/09/15
And I am wondering when you are going to actually list your system on this forum. I owe you nothing in the way of proof because you don't even list your system, let alone your own measurements. Confess, you have never measured anything in your entire life, have you?
Read my review of the Piega C2 ltd. speakers...there you can see my measurements of that speaker. Looking at sine waves on an oscilloscope won't tell me anything more that PVWW found as I cannot generate FFTs of the waves to get a harmonic pattern. I have the data for my JJ322 anyway, courtesy of a Polish magazine that made measurements. Suffice to say the amp makes 15 watts with 1% THD and bandwidth is flat from 10-30Khz. Harmonic composition is largely monotonic with 2nd order dominating and dying off by the 5th order at 1Khz and 1 watt. What I don't have is distortion vs. frequency but given the size and quality of the output transformer I don't expect much in the way of core saturation. BTW, the JJ sounds anything but dark and rolled off. It is quite a bright and sunny sounding amplifier but with very nicely articulated bass.
"knowing how bright these can be"
You know this how? You have owned one? In fact, it is a very accurate cartridge and any brightness is usually with the associated gear (like phonostage). I used this cartridge with non-SET amps and it worked great there as well. (Einstein, Sphinx, Silvaweld OTL etc.) Not to mention I was using ribbons and electrostats that are very revealing of issues. The secret is of course to mate it with an superb phonostage...one that is far more expensive than one normally puts with a "budget" cartridge. This is what is never done in reviews and that is why some found it "bright"...they had crap phonostages!
There is still a possibility that a pure SS amp could appeal, maybe a First Watt. However, now that I have lived with my NAT for some time I realize that what is missing from ALL SS output amps I have heard is that 3d palpability to the instruments and their holographic place in space that only a tube amp produces. I have found that a reverse hybrid is capable of this (proven by KR Audio) so it seems to be something with tube output (OTLs also do it so it is not the transformer). Even a very good Class A transistor ouptut stage leaves that breath of realism missing ultimately.
My NAT gets close after running hard for a couple of hours as it gets almost psychedelically good but still not have this "shape" to the sound that makes it feel more real. The Sphinx PJ14 and PJ16 have it a little bit but only when strapped to a very good tube preamplifier. The Einstein didn't have it at all, sounding more like a normal SS amp but with better tone and timbre than most. KR is the only hybrid I have heard that really competes with the best all tube SETs. It actually betters most of them because of its drive, dynamics and control over the bass. It is not a really lush sounding amp but it most certainly is holographic...one of the very best in this regard. I honestly don't know how they got the transistors to sing like that but I am guessing that they don't know how to duplicate this with an all SS circuit, which is why they still need monster tubes and big transformers.
You can go on and on about power, clipping etc. but I almost never push my amps anywhere close to clipping and STILL there is a profound difference in the sound that doesn't fall in favor of SS. They are victims of their own complexity and the higher the power, in my experience, the worse they tend to sound. My amp at 1 watt (loud enough for nearly all my listening) is well under 1% and benign components...and it sounds that way, pure.
How do you explain the differences observed in preamplifiers? Since you seem to think most of the problem with amps is clipping behavior, how then do you explain the obvious sound quality differences observed from preamps? They are never clipping, have no serious load most of the time and deliver relatively little current. And YET, there are only a few SS preamps that even approach the quality of the best tube ones (the Lyra Connoisseur, the Robert Koda T10 are the only two I know of). They suffer similar issues as SS amps with the way they handle recorded space and imaging. Naturally, there are a number of not so good tube preamps as well but most of those at least handle space better than even really good SS preamps.
How do you explain the differences observed in preamplifiers? Since you seem to think most of the problem with amps is clipping behavior, how then do you explain the obvious sound quality differences observed from preamps? They are never clipping, have no serious load most of the time and deliver relatively little current. And YET, there are only a few SS preamps that even approach the quality of the best tube ones (the Lyra Connoisseur, the Robert Koda T10 are the only two I know of). They suffer similar issues as SS amps with the way they handle recorded space and imaging. Naturally, there are a number of not so good tube preamps as well but most of those at least handle space better than even really good SS preamps -Cab
Pre-amps do have issues with dynamic compression based on load being driven and recovery, this is one reason why cabling makes a big difference with them, they are sensitive to RLC loading and PSU size more than most would think, tooby's are also sensitive to PSU, but their higher operating voltages gives them an automatic large joule capacity, choose an SS Pre with a big separate output supply and come again.A bad pre is just that, i have heard bad tooby pre's same as SS...
This is why i cannot agree with your broad brush assumption that SS is no good, your system is obviously biased around your taste and your Horns , what we choose is based on the type of speakers we like and our sonic bias, what works for us , doesn't make one better than another, takes a bit more evaluation to determine such and in the end there is no best of the best , just what works or don't.Based on your system list very few SS amps will appeal to you , same as no tooby would work for me in my setup, cold facts, not one good the other bad, any SS you think is good , others will find slow and dark.
Edits: 07/10/15
"This is why i cannot agree with your broad brush assumption that SS is no good, your system is obviously biased around your taste and your Horns "
Obviously you were not paying attention to what I wrote. I went to tubes and especially SETs long before I switched to horns...like 7 or 8 years before. Horns are just the latest change I have tried and while I like it a lot (it is quite visceral), I am not sure it is better than the best electrostatic or ribbon systems I have had and I was driving those with tube and hybrid amplifiers.
However, I switched LONG LONG ago from pure SS amps and never went back despite the so-called "advances " in the designs (and yes I have heard the best of what is considered SOTA).
"Based on your system list very few SS amps will appeal to you"
Why do you keep harping on the current system?? I haven't liked the sound of SS amps in ANY of my systems and there have been numerous. It is not like I woke up one day and bought horn speakers and said, "I know I need to get SETs now". I already had SETs with ribbons and electrostats and conventional speakers well before that.
I switched for good to tubes when I had the Infinity IRS Beta System and every SS amp I tried made them sound very analytical and uninvolving. I bought a big push/pull EL34 based tube amp for the panels and kept my big SS amp (500 watts into the 4 ohm towers) for the bass boxes. That was in about 2003. Since then only tubes or hybrids, although people tried to convince me that their SS amps were really good...they weren't and I even dipped my toes back in from time to time (BAT VK200) only to clearly realize that SS amps lack naturalness to the sound and a believable realism. It just isn't there.
I have owned probably more than 20 pairs of speakers and this is only the 2nd pair of horns I have owned (I had an old pair of Klipsch La Scallas in college) this is why your analysis of my biases is simply way off bass (get it?), er base. If you said I had a bias towards planar speakers you would be more correct in fact, although they usually do not demonstrate at shows nearly as well as in the home. I have, however, been curious about horns since I started hearing them outperform everything else at major hifi shows. Only Avantgarde is demoing with SS amps and they usually are not among the best sounding (Although this year the Duo Omegas sounded amazing with AudioPax tube amps and a Lampizator TUBE DAC).
Cab,
Did you attend the IAFF Diamond Meet and yes, i'm well aware of the AT sound , had many over the years...
Regards..
But have you had the AT150MLX? I didn't think so.
And you would be wrong ......
sure you did...with what phonostage??
Fet10e,
I also have 2 custom made PP that exceeds the SC of the Fet10 on MM setups, they are for MM cartridges ( one is batt powered )only so dont get much used today unless I'm running one of my other tables with an MM (MM STABLE CONSIST OF,Grado(2)Ortofon,(1)AT(2), Shure V15 type3) the flexibility of My 10e PP makes running any a snap, Then of course i have to give space to my digital setup and RR tapes.Yes, i do try to enjoy all species ..:)
Satisfactory, Mr Pusedo science, heavily biased, pro tooby guy ....?
Regards
Edits: 07/11/15
Satisfactory, Mr Pusedo science, heavily biased, pro tooby guy ....?
I know you're not talkin' to me...I am basing my comments purely on science...not engineering orthodoxy. Observation and research are the foundations of science that I follow closely (since science IS my actual profession afterall).
Heavily biased?? Nope not me either...I have played both sides of the tube/ss fence (and most of the time sat right in the middle with hybrids). Extensive experience, observation and testing has led me in a particular direction but I am always prepared to be surprised.
Pro tube? Until something better comes along I guess that is somewhat true but not exclusively...as I have pointed out many many times (my favorite former KR Audio amps were in fact 2/3rds SS!! One of my main amps now is a hybrid as well). It is true that I haven't been full SS for a long time and for good reason...every time I hear an all SS system (no matter what the price or pedigree) it makes me cringe. The lack of natural tone and soundstage is a no go IMO. Purely SS phonostages and preamps mostly do not cut the mustard either (although the Lyra ones did, so I know it is possible).
I will probably be trying a KR Audio hybrid preamp pretty soon. They basically designed it as a mini one of their hybrid amps, including transformer coupling the output.
Again, do you have or have you had the AT150MLX and have you ever ran it through a reference level tube phonostage?
Ran the AT 150 MLX thru my fet10 , I told you that before , I also have access to an FM acoustics PP, I have tried both , Fet10 and FMA on the AT ...
Not sure what you are getting at Morri, I find many cartridges surpasses the AT150 MLX
Sound...
Regards
So, no tubes...then you haven't heard what's possible
I have had enuff toobs to know what works or not and got away from their finicky ways, as i did not find them necessary for good sound. So yes, I will go out on a limb and say there is better out there than an AT150 mlx cartridge, Yes, I'm pretty confident of such . :)
Morri, I noticed how you muscled your way into the speaker damping Q argument over on Big Wallet Forum, the irony was stifling .. :)
If it wont work on toobs , it's wrong ....... LOL
Regards...
"got away from their finicky ways, "
As if you have never had a transistor product fail...what did you do with it then? Probably threw it away. My phonostage has performed flawlessly over the last 8 years I have had it. Only one set of tube changes (5 minutes work) and that was it.
As to the AT150MLX, never said there wasn't better...there is always better if you have the money to spend...but you haven't heard what it can do with a SS phonostage and it's that simple.
"If it wont work on toobs , it's wrong "
Pretty much the case...sorry if you lack the ears to hear it.
I find it funny the dogma of the meter readers who claim superiority because of measurements that have been DEMONSTRATED to have nothing to do with subjective sound quality. One writer called it "Technical Morality" a transfer of religious rigtheousness to other fields.
Those who can hear mostly prefer tubes. You ever ask yourself why all those musicians out there either went back to or never left tube amplification for their guitars and basses? Why it single handedly kept the tube world alive for audiophiles to rediscover? Why the pro speakers kept high sensitivity (it wasn't just for concerts if that is what you might want to argue). Why so many recording studios went BACK to tube microphones and microphone preamps?? I will give you a hint...it wasn't because of technical specs, those guys couldn't care less...it was the SOUND. There is an interesting paper from the mid 1970s where a guy went exploring as to why many studios started having bad sound and he traced it to the microphone preamps going from tube to SS. They did listening tests and overload measurements. Interestingly, they found that the sound STILL was quite different well below overload, so that alone is not the whole story. Just like you and your clipping BS even though I tell you over and over I don't listen to clipping, I am nearly always way below.
PS .....
Morri, sorry , Inspector Tooby , more irony , it does appear more and more high sensitivity speaker manufacturers are demonstrating with SS stuff , you should get on it, please don't let the world slip like this .
Regards
Imagine on topic ...... :)
Avantgarde and Tune Audio were the ONLY horn speakers I saw in Munich using SS...so much for your theory...and they were not even close to the best sounding...oh wait the Avantgarde Duo Omegas were but with AudioPax TUBES and Lampizator TUBES!!!
Everyone I talked to found that the Tune Audio speakers sounded MUCH better in the past with all tube on the system (this year it was all tube except the amplifier and it was lacking).
Nice attempt with the Dogma Morri, Ironic how you dispel scientific measurements , yet you readily quote them as to bandwidth , sensitivity and feedback , unlike you I'm no Science-tsk, there's plenty Data to backup my claims and no , can't say I have reliability issues in regards to SS , failures have been rare and limited to 2 or 3 Incidents over 40 yrs of purchasing them, with my tooby stuff , everyone , yes everyone needed constant attn and tooby changes , Rolling rolling , repair , rolling , et al, so I choose to get off, get it , not BS conjecture which you like to throw around , just hard facts ...Now , If I find a SS product to sound good then I'm deaf , (more dogma) this coming from a guy who thinks an AT150mlx can't be bettered because he has the best phono stage in the world just because it has toobs . You dispel data and facts constantly with conjecture , everything is BS unless Morricab thinks so , what I see is Morricab loves clipping and euphoric harmonics , favoring an artificial reproduction not even ( distortion) close to the recording , I mean toobs are so superior everyone who hears it have to buy , why toobs must be outselling SS devices 10:1 , throw all conjecture my way , I'm sure you Got stock ..?
Really ....
Your choice , not mine, you see unlike you I don't claim any superiority of one over the other I have gone thru that gate along time ago , so peddle your BS Khama elsewhere and funny enough , If you were to ratchet up your persona a few more notches you could become a top class reviewer like Peter B ... Lol
Now , I don't have to ask musicians about toobs , worked with a lot of them in past years and most don't have toobs , secondly I don't need your approval as to what sounds good or not , been around this game for 40yrs and at all levels, if I like the sound of something , anything, be it digital , analog or SS , that's my choice not yours, I have never claimed SS was superior to toobs , ironic , especially seeing there are other tooby guys snickering at your choices of toobs , yeah ! Go figure , some find your tooby choices laughable , hard to believe, I know , you being a reviewer and all , but true ... You see Cab I ask about your choices to get an understanding of why, because I can't hear your suggestions thru the Internet , but you and most like you seem to be on some kind of change the world agenda, audio seems to be riddled with this , I really don't care if you like toobs , find it hilarious to pull your string thou , it was also patently hillarious when you couldn't tell Static how much you dis-liked VTL , I did let it slide at the time , in case you forgot our conversation ...
Where are we ....
Ahh, so, no I don't find an AT150mlx reference quality , but it does put in perspective where you are coming from , I do find interesting what you like and why , once I get past your BS Dogma ...Morricab best hi-fi guy in the world .... :)
Regards
Edits: 07/16/15
Got Strawmen?? Your ability to put words into the mouth and draw conclusions on things never state is astonishing.
Really, and your 40 years experience?? Means nothing really. I can try for 40 years to make it in the NBA but all that experience won't get me there playing with the big boys. If you don't have the Skills experience counts for not too much. I see this also in my professional life, plenty of experienced people without a shred of competence.
I also have no problem with you liking SS...as you said it's your choice...how could it be otherwise as I am not holding a gun (metaphorically speaking) to your head to make you change your mind.
I never said the AT150MLX was the best...you only keep repeating this to make your strawman argument...same with the phonostage.
You have never claimed explicitly that SS is superior but with every discussion the implication is clear that it is exactly what you think. Leave it unsaid if you must but no one who reads these threads will think otherwise.
Also, I never said that I dislike VTL, again another strawman for you to base your false claims from. I don't think it is the best or even best for the money but I would take it over any high powered SS amp any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Your claims that I like euphony and clipping are your way of repeating a mantra enough until you hope someone else belives it.
I could just as easily say that you like cold, sterile sounding SS caused by high order harmonics from heavy feedback... it would actually be more true I would guess.
Morri, please get some rest your responses are , well .....Here:
7: RE: Bat SS I can agree with,, dark sounding (3.87) Open this result in new window
Posted by morricab on 2015-06-01, 13:26:55 (80.218.199.14)
No, I didn't slam VTL (but they are only mediocre IMO) .......
Your most recent comments say mediocre , we have discussed in the past and agreed (rarely) that we both found the VTL a sound a bit soft and dark , you must have an issue with your comprehension son, or is mediocre a good thing .. ?
Now I can't keep searching to keep you on topic if you can't remember your own comments when in conversation , I'm sure you might recall telling me how good the 150 MLX is when I asked why , how many thousands more I would have to spend to better it's sound and the only reason I thought my MC 's sounded better was due to not having a good PP as you, it's your reference cartridge , by your own words , now what ...?
You must have hit some kinda low desperado point Morri, I only wanted to see where you were coming from by selecting the 150mlx , instead you accuse me of never hearing it, then never having one , then having one with the wrong PP , this after telling you I have 3PP , now I need a tooby PP , this after you not hearing what I have , this is really getting strange Morri You seem challenged when discussing your position, even hitting on the NBA, I may have missed the relevance ..:)
Obviously you are not interested in an exchange , more in just your opinion , a necessary attribute if one wants to become a top tier reviewer, so I will admit it , I'm deaf I have SS , will I be able to fix this with Toobs... ?
What about this one , seems small enough ..? :)
Regards ..
Edits: 07/17/15
Yes, mediocre...are you reading something into that that I am not?? It is still preferably to all SS I have heard...that should tell you that i think most if not all SS is worse than mediocre. It is mostly the really big VTLs that I have heard sound like you describe.
"I'm sure you might recall telling me how good the 150 MLX is when I asked why "
Did you really ask why?? Don't think it was put that way.
"You seem challenged when discussing your position,"
No, I simply don't think you care about a position just a joust.
"Obviously you are not interested in an exchange , more in just your opinion "
I have yet to see a solid position from you in which to base an exchange...just a series of jousts and challenges as if I am required to live up to your standard of proof. When I see that then perhaps we can debate.
Nevermind, I have heard literally dozens of ribbon based systems that used SS and then sounded much more natural when the owners switched away from the big SS monsters. I heard it before my friends but once they did they switched too. We have one friend who is a hold out and likes his big Pinius and STAX monsters but no one likes the sound of his system (and that is with Apogee Full Ranges) except him. Go figure. I have heard this conversion too many times to count. Even the late Allen Wright specifically designed a 1 ohm tube amp to drive his Scintillas because he just couldn't give them up and he couldn't live with SS sound.
I went to horns because I couldn't stand the sound of big high powered amps and the electrostats were no longer domestic (WAF) friendly. It took me a long time to find horns that were sufficiently uncolored (remember I come from ribbons and electrostats...I hate box or horn colorations). In a moderate sized room the 30 watt KR was just enough power for my Acoustats.
Thoughts on AudioPax .... ?
Only heard them at the show this year in Munich and coupled to the Avantgarde duo Omega and Lampiztor big 7 DAC the sound was in the top three at the show for me and my friends (and my wife)...so I guess they can't be too bad.
As i said before Morri,
I'm agnostic with amplifiers I dont favor one over the other, I got away from Toobs because i found them too finicky and found i could get the sound i wanted with SS, i must state the majority of my SS stuff are/were custom built Jobs, so i dont share your opinion on them vs Tooby stuff and i dont care if others use them , as both can be made to sound good.
I did try to recently order an AN amplifier but they wanted me to get the output tranny for 1 ohm, so i passed, I wanted 8/4/2/1 so i could move it between my other systems as necessary. So far Luke (VTL) will accommodate me , but I'm not interested in buying 16 output toobs every 2 yrs or so like i had to do with my MC3500. Maybe I'm giving up what you crave, for me I have what i want , it sounds visceral and real with speed , attack and dynamics, micro and macro and i have yet to hear my tooby Friends or Horn friends listen and say otherwise or anything negative. Most anti SS comments are done when first seated , never 3 hrs later, most are well , impressed (their words ) even the Horn guys cant believe the dynamics and attack, so , it works for me, I really dont feel the desire to change, could be me , getting jaded after these years, I'm mostly about the music now, my design years are behind me.
I did mention 2 of Pre's are toobs , as i still have my Bat pre , but i prefer to use my SS Pre, i find them different more than one being better than the other. The Toobs has a bigger sound stage with more ambiance, the SS sounds more direct, visceral and with correct timbre but with less width, height and depth.
The attraction varies with recordings, Better ? or different ? its different to me, so i choose accordingly.
Regards.
I found that my NAT hybrid (with output transistors) needed 2 hours of continual playing to reach it's sonic potential and even then it was falling short in a couple of important areas to really good tubes (it destroyed less tubes sonically though). On turnon it is tight and lacking dynamics. 30 minutes it reaches a good sound but still a bit dynamically leashed. After 2 hours it becomes almost hallucinogenic and dynamic but STILL the sound of images is somewhat flatish (soundstage is not though and awesome).
In the end I couldn't live with it and have now traded it for a pair of 35 watt parallel SET monoblocks using two of the Russian 6C33C per mono. Much smaller, much less heat (if you can imagine just how much heat the NAT made...and that with transistor outputs!) and maybe not as good sonically in all ways to the NAT but ways important to me I think they are better.
I have yet heard a SS amp that would make me change my mind in this direction...some hybrids of course (my favorite KR audio are hybrids afterall).
I think that I will at some point at least try out the new Pass XA30.8, since Jack Roberts at Dagogo actually thought it was better than his Wavac EC-300B. I have heard the Wavac HE-805 and was flabbergasted at how good the sound was. I want to know if Pass got around the specific issues I find with SS amps presentation of space and imaging. THere is a dealer for Pass not more than 15 minutes from me so I can probably get a home audition even.
Hi Morricab !
Do you know which sort of output power tranzistor that your ex-NAT hybrid used ? ,
Some vintage powerfull SIT(Static Induction Tranz.) with triode like transfer characteristic ? , or some modern powerfull FET type with typical pentode like transf.charact. ? , or maybe something else ?
Best Regards !
__
"Art which does not have the appearance of art is true art."
- Old Roman saying -
@Cab,
I'm not sure Pass anything would change your mind, non I have ever heard said toobs, I think Ayre gets closer to what you are looking for..
Regards.
I think you still have a misconception about the kind of tube sound I am after...it is not a warm slow "golden" sound.
Morri chk this out .....
Already got a quote on it about a month ago...decided not to pull the trigger for now.
The Ayre is not slow and mushy and no that's not the impression i get from your descriptions, of tubes amps ..
Regards.
All A/AB amps have some class-A bias Morri , could you be more specific when you say class-A
Edits: 07/08/15
I don't have to, you know what I mean so stop trying to parce my words.
Yes , you do ,
non output transformer amps can only be full class-a @8ohms and mostly up to a Specific power output . So yes you need to be more specific are we talking 10%, 20%, 30%,50%, of its rated output, how much class-A bias wets your appetite ...?
Your favorite list for eg, I would bet most are running about 10-20% class-A power and I had or have tried some on your list and many good ones are missing , instead of the VK200 I had the VK500, err Dead , it was ok/ good on my mini monitors but in the end , Meh ..
Can't agree with you on Dartzeel , have you tried Spectral ..? Interesting really , we must be at opposite ends of the audio spectrum , even thou with big high sensitivity Horns , maybe not, are we getting to the same place via different avenues , really silly if you find all those SS stuff lame , especially with you favoring VTL and AR over the Lamm now off your list, you seem to like a specific coloration in your amplifiers, I know , my 300B used to breathe that kind of life into the music, it can be intoxicating for sure , especially on specific recordings, accurate ..?
Morri,
If you had watched the Bascom King videos posted awhile back , you would have seen how he expressed what happens to an amplifier when music is used instead of test signals , this is key to understand when designing , the "art" in the game , as Nelson Pass would describe it and unless your toob amp is using large inductors in the PSU , you will not be able to duplicate the high instant peaks from your BIG 9 watter ....
Just saying ...
Regards
No, I don't. You on the other hand seem to revel in being master of the obvious. Spare me your pseudo knowledge about amp design, ok? The Sphinx Project 14, for example, was 24 watts Class A and 180 watts (8 ohms) AB. Into 4 ohms that would 12 watts Class A but it doubled in AB to 360 watts. I had a Sumo Nine that was full Class A 60 watts into 8 ohms and claimed the same into 4 ohms (fan cooling was damned noisy). The Sim Audio amp I had was probably about 5 watts Class A. The Acoustic Plan Santor was 15 watts Class A and 50 watts total.
Never said the BAT was Class A...worked better on the Acoustats though than on conventional speakers.
As I said, only the HYBRID Lamm did not really impress. It is not bad though just for the money I wouldn't buy it or keep it.
The Sphinx Project 16 was a full 100 watts Class A and had fan cooling. It also had an adjustable power supply depending on the load range to give the same power in Class A to other impedances than 8 ohm.
The NAT is full on Class A because, drum roll please, it is single ended and consumes 800 watts! A true space heater.
Can't agree with you on Spectral...only heard it at shows though.
You seem to be forgetting that the Odeons are the first horn speaker I have owned (if you don't count the small Odeon Orfeo that has a horn tweeter but the mid/bass is conventional port loading).
First I was all about low sensitivity "neutral" speakers with powerful SS amps. Then to ribbons with high powered SS and then with medium power tubes and finally with a high power hybrid. Then on to Electrostats and high powered hybrids, medium powered hybrids, high powered OTLs and ultimately SET amps. I am coming from where you seem to have gone and I think it sounds better and more natural over here. Most of my friends have taken the same journey and drive their Apogees with hybrids and SETs. Tubes are everywhere in their systems now and they all sound a lot better once most of the SS was removed.
FWIW, if your read the article I linked (It is not obvious from your comments that you have) you will see that he saw the effect for many tube amps but the SET had the biggest effect. No mention of big inductors in the power supply. However, my amp is a big (42Kg) 15 watter ;-).
the tooby sound is magic for the first few hrs then Meh and I have never heard a tooby SOTA system beat a SS SOTA setup.
I find the contrary to be true.
Never for me, its like wafering along with a V12, pleased with the smoothness and ease and then floor the pedal and Meh.
I would think that "Wafering along" and pressing the pedal to one of these V-12s would be anything but "meh". :)
Those V10s and V12s were amazing, in power and in sound. Such a shame that the series went back to turbos. The current cars sound lamer than the Indy cars.
Agree with the 3L era , Indy cars of past sounded fantastic , during the Cossie v8 era, f1 best era for sonics , 88-96 , just before they became WWF1 ...
.....
In fact tubes do dynamic scaling better than SS for amps of similar power. Read the work from Peter Van Willensward - Morricab
More strawmen arguments Morri, so what if the power is dissimilar , your 9 watt vs my 1KW, where did PVW see his 9 watt amp clip , this is all hilarious at least he did what you should have done ages ago, hookup a scope ... :)
I don't think a 9 watt SS amp is necessary , I'm sure you can find good examples ...
Edits: 07/08/15 07/08/15
What are your 1K watt amps? I am sure they do dynamics beautifully...LOL as if power has anything to do with it. The absolute WORST sounding amps I have heard were also some of the most powerful. It's also true with tube amps. Too many devices (SS or tube) leads to a mess sonically or like McIntosh, you running virtually pure Class B and wrap a ton of feedback around it and it becomes a kind of smooth, kind of dark and very very dull sounding. No life at all. I have heard this with the terribly overrated MC501s and the MC1201s. I have heard the Musical Fidelity KW750 and the Crown Macro Reference and both suck (the Crown was much worse though). About the only high powered amp that I have heard that wasn't too bad was the Sunfire.
Of course if your speakers are like 70db/watt maybe to get anything out you need your monsters.
Morri,Never said the Bat was class-A, I asked you to define your position on CLass-A, you previously said only CLass-A amplfier's work's for you, yet you could not define your position on Class-A and in turn only listed one that could be classified as true Class-A..
Now plug in that scope and weep ... :)In reference to liking small amplfiers, we discussed this months ago, obvious you favor the clipping distortion they exhibit and as such, this determines what suites you sonically and or not and Yes I need monster amps in system 1 (78db/w/m 7 ft linesource) not so for system 2 and 3 those have and use tooby's from time to time,(88-91db/w/m) not too shabby too.
You should try1. Spectral
2. D agostino
3. Krell Evo series
4. Krell FPB CX series
5. Dartzeel (not sure which model failed to make your list)
6. Ayre MX-R mono
7. Boulder
8. Halo JC-1
9. Sanders mono
10.Chord
To name a few SS models , if any of these sound "bad" i can safely say you need new speakers or have a bad setup feeding the amplifiers (cabling , source, power)
Since nothing in Audio is Omni potent , no one thing is going to be best of best and they may not suit your 69 db listening taste for realism, ( hell of an imagination thou) then again, you seem to be running more Bias than your Amplfiers.
LOL :)
Edits: 07/09/15
Yes I need monster amps in system 1 (78db/w/m 7 ft linesource)
What kind of shit linesource has such an abysmal sensitivity?? Especially one so long?? A BG planar line source is at least in the upper 80s db range (at a flat 4 ohm). What is yours driven by??? Wimpy refrigerator magnets?? I once visited the Piega factory in Horgen, Switzerland and saw how they build their co-axial planar driver. It uses very powerful Nd magnets and they told me that the raw driver has a sensitivity of 104db/watt (4ohms)!!! Even Magnepans are more sensitive and they have WIMPY magnets. Only the Original Apogees had such low sensitivities. By the end, even Apogees were up around 85-87db with a moderate 5 ohm load. Are you running Apogee Full Ranges or perhaps Scintillas?
Allen Wright once designed a tube amp to drive Scintillas and it sounded AWESOME with them. It was tailored to do drive 1 ohm loads and deliver 100 watts into that load. Best sound by far on Scintillas I ever heard. The Sphinx Project 16 also worked very well when set on its 2 ohm power supply mode (it has 8, 4 and 2 ohm power supply modes). Again 100 watts was enough to drive it to fairly loud levels.
Ah, so these amps have your blessing?? LOL! Not one of them, except PERHAPS the D'Agostino would be anywhere near my list.
Actually, a few on your list do sound less than spectacular. The Halo JC-1 is very overrated as is anything from Krell. Spectral is fast and dynamic but harmonically all wrong...if the tone is wrong it is WRONG!! This along with dynamic constriction is my biggest beef with SS amps.
To name a few SS models , if any of these sound "bad" i can safely say you need new speakers or have a bad setup feeding the amplifiers (cabling , source, power)
I don't think you can make this conclusion at all. It is a the comment of a clearly biased individual.
69 db listening taste for realism
I am quite sure my ears work better than yours as a result of my control on the volume MR. 110db with hair on fire!
It's at 3m and both the magnapan and others you mention is not even on the same planet when compared and it's a pure ribbon hybrid , the system is 3db down at 24HZ in room response and the B&G 's are not pure ribbons and IMO horrible by comparison , do a waterfall plot and take a look , B&G's are bad their push pull pattern gives them high sensitivity but at a cost of resolution and SC . As usual you are applying Biased puesdo science .....
I have many friends with horns , big custom ones and all the brand name stuff , all will Match or Surpass your gig in the horn world , some using toobs, some mix toobs SS, non surpasses my all SS setup and Ribbon Hybrid ( their opinion) including db levels , resolution , imaging or dynamics, I just can't used colored low powered , high thd toobs the way you like , interesting you find an AT 150 MLX , a reference cartridge ..Ohh by the way Sensitivity is the same as the Scintilla, Maggie's and Full range ...
I have also heard your amp list, the sphinx was grossly unreliable and non were available for purchase shortly after they burst on the scene and I did here good things about the Toooby's , one associate had a pr of mono bloc toob Bats driving his scintilla , not for me , no get up and go , a hundred watts won't cut it, and I'm not worried about my hearing , I do test my hearing regularly and at 16K I'm still good for an old guy , so I will keep treking with what suits me and it's not high THD flea powered Toooby's.
Morri ,I'm happy for you , 69db realism and all, interestingly, what's your room noise floor , must be anechoic for 69db realism .. :)
Regards
Edits: 07/12/15 07/12/15 07/12/15
"It's at 3m and both the magnapan and others you mention is not even on the same planet when compared and it's a pure ribbon hybrid , the system is 3db down at 24HZ in room response and the B&G 's are not pure ribbons and IMO horrible by comparison , do a waterfall plot and take a look , B&G's are bad their push pull pattern gives them high sensitivity but at a cost of resolution and SC . As usual you are applying Biased puesdo science ..... "
1) You didn't state it is at 3M and am I to assume that you are meaning a free space drop of a line source? Again, in a room it is never, ever, that much. You try to take me to task for perceived imprecision but you are at least as guilty and not forthcoming with details.
2) Not Pseudo science at all, just discussing sensitivity...I never said a word about sound quality. Although, I have played with the BG planars (I am well aware that they are not ribbons) and they have some nice qualities but tend to be overly sharp (possibly what is observed in the waterfall and they have a sharp resonance that can be suppressed but not eliminated).
I made a hybrid system though with their short planar (the RD28.1) and a 10 inch woofer in a sealed box (Peerless CSX, which has superb rolloff characteristics) and a 300Hz electronic crossover (Accuphase F25 analog active xover that I bought from Japan). You are wrong about the BG resolution though, it is as good as a true ribbon or electrostat...but has some unnatural colorations that make it sound less pure.
It may have escaped your attention but I love ribbons and ribbon hybrids. Ever heard a pair of Relcos? I almost bought a Relco Sinus one ribbon hybrid (only to 35 hz or so in-room though) but it was too large for the WAF (but in the past I have had 8 foot plus monster Acoustats). It has a 6 foot long ribbon and an 8 inch woofer in a sealed box. Very nice and pure sounding and with my NAT hybrid, one probably wouldn't wish for more. Sadly, I couldn't bring them home. One of my all-time favorite speakers is the Apogee Centaur Major. A friend has them and I prefer their sound over his Scintillas and his Studio Grands (he is a bit of an Apogee nut). I keep trying to buy them off of him but he loves them too...
Still, for ultimate purity, the STAX ELS F81 powered by a big push/pull EL34 tube amp was a high point for me. It was oh so limited in other areas but it was perfection on a small scale. Bigger electrostats lost some of that (thicker plastic...the STAX was only 4 micron thickness) but allowed for louder and bigger performances.
"interesting you find an AT 150 MLX , a reference cartridge "
No, I did not say that. But to better it requires an investment I am not at this time willing to make. I have had much dearer cartridges from Lyra, Dynavector and Ortofon. I would say i find the Dynavector D17 Karat to be a reference cartridge but it is not as happy with my tube phonostage given its low output.
" sphinx was grossly unreliable and"
No worse than a lot of other amps out there. I have a good friend who is a wizard at amp repair and he has many Krells, Levinsons etc. go through his door. I had to have my Sphinx repaired once and the friend who has it now (8 years later) has never had a problem with it since.
"I'm happy for you , 69db realism and all, interestingly, what's your room noise floor , must be anechoic for 69db realism .. :)
"
Yep, 0db noise floor...so I have a 69db dynamic range!!! ;-).
Here's someone who would disagree with your Mac assumptions... :) I had the 3500's many moons ago they are the cats pajamas and spolit me on what a big tooby should sound like..
Edits: 07/13/15
MC3500 , The original bad bwoy tooby ........
Morri heres a good deal ......
actually, I am thinking about getting the aniversary edition with ruby cantilever and titanium body.
If you don't have a good PP you will not appreciate what MC 's can do ....
Regards
Oh I have a great one and I do appreciate what good MCs can do. But I would argue that you have never heard the full potential of the AT150MLX.
Good Argument ..... lol
I recall hearing the V-10s at Indy in the early 2000s. Just last month, I went to the Montreal F1. Still enjoy watching them, but the sound is not the same.
I agree with you re antique tubes/valves, as for the Devialet I have only heard the Devialet Premier at Home and I agree with Morricab
for $7k it better be good. If I had the money I would enjoy trying one.
I would enjoy trying one.
And most likely find you still prefer the natural musicality of tubes vs the cold "reality" of switching amps.
IMO antique hot deterioating tubes are a complete waste of money, $7K there are far better ways of spending.
Did you post for suggestions in the High Efficiency Speaker forum some time back? If not, or, if to just vindicate Class D, I heard Merrill Audio Veritas driving 108 dB efficient $40k Sadurni horns and the sound was impressive, nothing to indicate the horns were driven by Class D. In fact, we wondered in by chance and was caught off guard by the great sound and had to investigate what we were listening to. I visited the room again before I left, and this room took best of show, I believe more than one year. Merrill's Taranis is a single chassis amp retailing at $2500.00 USD. There are a couple reviews for the Taranis, I believe it was Enjoy the Music who reviewed the newish Pass X250.8 and his regular system contained a Taranis.
With that being said if you can return the Benchmark and only get what the dealer carries I think you'd be very happy with a Pass XA-30.5. I suspect the NAD would also have good synergy with the Pass. The Pass will put out some heat though and although my friends who own Pass don't seem to notice, for me, my Pass amp seems to open up and sound better after about 30 to 45 minutes of coming out of standby.
Everyone i spoke to who heard the Class-D Merrill amps on the Sadurni Horns were very impressed with the combination ...
Regards
Edits: 07/07/15
Nt
try it! you know you want to!
Thanks Mr P and Wayne
When I return from my canal boating in France, I'll get my Hi-Fi hat on and look carefully at your suggestions.
Peter
The Neodio NR-600 Signature is the first SS amp (including separates) that I've experienced that didn't have me running back to tubes. Check out Bob Heinz's comments from Audiogon on his discovery with the NR-600 (integrated amp):
"I have been a tube man for years believing that there could be no SS that I would like as well as a great tube system. I tried Pass, TRL, Rowland, and more but none to my ears were as enjoyable as a great tube system until now.
I have discovered a SS integrated. Yes believe it or not a integrated amp from a French company named Neodio. I have their NR 600 Signature. It replaced a Air Tight 300b amp and Joule Electra ME300 pre amp and believe or not its not even close favoring the Neodio."
Obviously, the Neodio replaced some pretty well-thought-of tube gear in his system.
I too was searching for an SS amp - in my case to power my Merlins - and can honestly say I've found it and haven't yet thought of looking elsewhere. The Neodio amps use the non-memory-loss feature found in Lavardin amps, which may be a major contributor to my fondness of the sound, which is overall quite enveloping and airy (like tubes), but also very articulate with plenty of power (like a good SS amp). The treble is not the least bit strident, which I'm particularly averse to with the Merlins. If you can find one, it's definitely worth a listen. In the USA, there aren't many to be found in the used market. May be an easier catch in the UK.
Thanks DKL. Sounds promising - OI'll investigate when I return home from France
Happy hunting - looks like there is a distributor in the UK. Their CD player has received much praise as well (the Origine) - as it should for its lofty price tag!
DKL
I hear a lot of recommendations from folks who do not appear to own high efficiency horns? Not sure why you want to avoid tubes (I replace my output tubes avery 5-7 years with daily use) but I have not heard a SS amp that I really liked with horns. Years back, I worked at an Avangarde dealer during grad school so I am pretty familiar with the lineup (although not the latest versions).
If you do not want to pay for 845 tubes, get a smaller triode amp like 300B (plenty of decent sounding and fairly cheap models readily available), you will not have any issues driving 100db efficient horns with ~8w.
I remember reading your original thread and seeing recommendations like Benchmark, Krell, etc which just about me me LOL but hey, perhaps some people like that type of sound? On horns??? Evidently, your ears like what my ears like (i.e. DHSET and not PP, feedback SS amps) so I would consider looking at alternatives in that vein.
Hi TubeDriver
Thanks for your comments and I agree mostly with what you say. You are obviously keen on tubes as are many horn users. What no one seems to explain is why Avantgarde themselves choose to use solid state (and only solid state) for their own electronics, rather than tubes. Can you shed any light on this? Do AG amplifier spoil the sound of their speakers?
I'm sure (as I presume AG are) that solid state amps CAN sound as good as tubes to drive horns. It's just a matter of making the right choice. If I could afford an AG amp, I'd probably get one.
Peter
I have no idea why AG would use SS electronics (120wpc class AB amp with conductive film potentiometers?) to power horns that have self powered bass modules and are 105db+ efficient?
Horns and low powered SETs are nothing new or rare, thousands and thousands of people worldwide have been enjoying this combination for decades now. I think they have enjoyed this following because they work really well together and people ENJOY the sound. For me, nothing else comes close (PP triodes and OTLs fall a distant 2nd and 3rd place respectively).
I can't say much about SS amps and horns because I have not tried this often. I have heard horn systems with gaincard amps and even T-amps and the sound is alright but certainly not what I want to listen to in the longterm.
The difficulty I have found with many commercial amps (both SS and tubes) is that the gain structure is completely wrong for 100+ db efficient horns and noise becomes an issue. Whatever the amp (SS or tube) they should be lower gain and extremely quiet.
You can go against the tide and use SS amps for your horns but I think you are going to have to search far and wide to find a SS amp that sounds good on your (or any) horns. IMHO, SS amps just don't sound lifelike or real, period. But lots of people like them so take my lone opinion with a grain of salt.
Good luck in your search for a SS amp for your horns! In the meantime, while this search continues, you may want to get a nice SET amp so you have something to listen in the interim!
Thanks for your reply. As I mentioned in my original post, I've been using SETs for many years with my Avantgardes and I love the sound of this combination. However I would listen more often if I had the amp on constantly and wasn't concerned with valve life, big power bills or overheated rooms! Pinch of salt, of course.
My amps have been powered by PX-25 or 845 valves but I've also tried 300B in my system - and those big Russian jobs in a very disappointing Graaf OTL amp.
The search continues as I'm certain there's a good SS companion to the horns lurking around somewhere. The Benchmark incidentally has a 3 position gain switch - one of the features that encouraged me to buy it. It's only the sound that disappoints - unfortunately the most important factor!
Peter
Peter ,
I may have missed it , did you list out the other SS smps you have tried apart from the benchmark ....?
Regards
Since buying the Avantgardes several years ago, I've hardly used SS amps. I listed the tube amps I've used. I think the amps I owned when I installed the AGs were Denon POA-4400 monoblocks or maybe AVI S2000MM monos, although these may have been sold as my speakers prior to AGs were Active ATC SCM50As so no amps needed.
I recently had a loan Diavelet but only for an hour or so. I must say it stood up well compared with my 845 monoblocks - a remarkably similar character to the sound. I have a Red Wine Signature 30.2 that's been upgraded to an LFP-V Edition. However it doesn't sound at all good with the AGs - another very disappointing SS amp, despite the reviews comparing it favourably with tubes.
I'm still considering a number of SS amps that others have thought would be a good match. There's something out there, but I'm not sure where it is yet!
Peter
Thanks for your reply. As I mentioned in my original post, I've been using SETs for many years with my Avantgardes and I love the sound of this combination. However I would listen more often if I had the amp on constantly and wasn't concerned with valve life, big power bills or overheated rooms! Pinch of salt, of course.
My amps have been powered by PX-25 or 845 valves but I've also tried 300B in my system - and those big Russian jobs in a very disappointing Graaf OTL amp.
The search continues as I'm certain there's a good SS companion to the horns lurking around somewhere. The Benchmark incidentally has a 3 position gain switch - one of the features that encouraged me to buy it. It's only the sound that disappoints - unfortunately the most important factor!
Peter
If you love the sound of SETs on your horns, I would say continue with them.
Output tubes run correctly usually last 5+ at least. The heat and electric bills will be similar with many class A SS amps and these are more than likely what you will prefer.
You could pick a SET amp that uses fairly inexpensive output tubes (Sovtec 2A3 monoplate for example or 6A4 or 300B (some Chinese 300B sound pretty decent and are cheap). At least when a tube fails, replacement is easy. What happens when one of your matched SS output devices goes bad? Is the manufacturer able to fix? Are the parts available 10 years from now?
I have been using the same horns and SET amps for close to 20 years now. No problems, no noise and I like the way they sound!
Magico like the first watt stuff with their horns and I'm willing to believe the Devialet will work too, its a fantastic amplifier .
Regards ...
Yep,
Some people even like the sound of toobs on Horns, can you believe that ..:)
I'm seeing more and more Horn speaker manufacturer starting to use other topologies, mostly for the power/performance, not everyone likes clipped dynamics and it's associated tooby harmonics from under powered tooby amps or , for me in particular, the unreliability from toobs and their changing sonics as toobs deteriorate over time.
Regards...
??
the point of efficient speakers is to use as low powered amplifier as possible to get the sound you want. why pair 2 totally incompatible technologies?
Yes, as Dave pointed out "Noise" is a big reason - or lack of it - for the Benchmark.
In fact it was Blazzar on the other forum who owns Avantgarde Trios and has tried many amps, both valve and SS and he reckons the Benchmark with Trios is a combination made in heaven! I'm doubting that now and am about to challenge his findings - not on the dead silent lack of noise, but on the lack of musical enjoyment with the Benchmark. He seems to be overwhelmingly consumed in his search for silence. I've rather fallen for this - hence my posting here!
Peter
Peter ,What is your Budget for an amplfier, how far do you sit from your speakers and what is your typical listening level... ?
Regards..
Edits: 07/09/15
I'd like to limit my amplifier cost to much the same as the Benchmark - under £3000. My speakers are 13 ft from my listening position and 9 ft apart, although they'd benefit a little from wider spacing.
The speakers are more or less in the middle of a 1000 sq ft semi-circular (worse parabolic) shaped room with low 7'6 ceilings and wall-to-wall windows. Far from ideal but my 845 based monoblocks provide a pretty good sound. I like to listen quite loudly to music such as female vocal, jazz, etc.
Many commercial tube amp are a bit noisy and usually have too many stages/gain and too much noise. Nicely built DIY (no compromise on size, weight, design or cost) are usually better IMHO.
But there are extremely quiet commercial tube amps out there as well. I own a Fi421 which is very quiet with 100+db efficient horns. I got the amp after listening to it with Avantgard Duos. Female vocals/jazz, small room and the Fi/Duo was a really enjoyable experience.
I have DIY PP EL84 monoblocks that are DEAD quit on my horns, absolutely no hum, hiss or noise of any kind when my ear is placed a couple inches away from my drivers. My two stage 300B mono blocks were dead quiet until I reverted to AC on the filaments, so I have a bit of hum now but I know where it comes from and can remove it if desired.
If you look around the web, it appears that other Avantgarde owners have suggested this pairing because the amp has a very low noise floor. They don't want to hear any hiss from their horns.
... The cost of valves/tubes and the time to warm up etc etc what is it about your current amps don't you like?
It seems you are looking in the $3000 range, which buys a few tubes.
Anyway, good luck in your search.
Smile
Sox
BUT you do not need monsters a good 5-10 watt SET will do you up just fine. Something from Audion perhaps like a Silver Night 300B or PX25 integrated.
The only other possible option would be a Pass SIT-1 or SIT-2.
Avantgardes own SS amps are not really that good...I have heard the newest stuff from them and it was not blow you away good.
If Devialet is in his price range he should give it a go , it will satisfy most if not all of his criteria's ...
Regards
Edits: 07/04/15
It will satisfy all but the most important....sound quality.
Condemnation without examination Morri ,
You need to get a Devialet into your system, 2days is all , download the most up todate software and give it a go ...
Regards
Edits: 07/05/15
Previous experience with Devialet tells me that I do not need to do this. See, I have examined the Devialet just not with high sensitivity horns. If I didn't like what I heard on my Genesis VIs then I am doubly sure I won't like what I hear on even more revealing speakers. Have YOU tried a Devialet in your system? If not, why not? You seem to be pitching it pretty hard as of late. At the moment I am getting really superb sound from my JJ 322 + Odeon speakers. I doubt the Devialet can touch this sound...in fact I am quite sure it cannot and the JJ is a lot cheaper as well!
Morri,
I did hear the Devialet's on a pr of ML Neolith's and thought very highly of them , they will not work in my main rig due to my reference speakers very low-Z if not for , I would have a Pr for sure and with all due respect , that Genesis model is a pretty poor sounding speaker , i would recommend you give the Devialet's a good look over , quite a few Toob-ites have switched after trying , they don't have any specific coloration like a tooby , so it may take awhile getting used to your familiar recordings without the added coloration ....
Regards
With all due respect, the Genesis VI is not a poor sounding speaker.
Also, the only guy I know who was convinced about the Devialet in my acquaintance circle was the one guy who never owned a good amp before going to the Devialet. Believe what you want but you aren't going to convince me when I have the experience that says its not the SOTA solution it is being touted as.
Remember I have also heard them with top notch Piega speakers and Thiel CS3.7s. Surely you don't think those speakers are crap too?
Morri,
I have heard many Thiels , never the 3.7 's nor have I heard Piega, their Masterline is similar in design to my current reference speakers , the Genesis model you referenced , I'm very familiar with and can say I think less of them than you do about class-D ...
Again , may I suggest you give the technology a listen , I had no interest until I heard them on the Neolith ( mono bloc Pr) after which a few other associates admitted to moving from toobs to the Devialet on their ESL's ( sound labs, Quad) , I know anything over 20 watts is a put off in your books , make the effort for humanity ... :)
Regards
Interestingly I did have a Devialet on loan but only for a couple of hours. Whatever morricab may say, it was remarkably similar in character to my tube monos. I still have this amp on my Maybe list. If they offered a power amp without the costly other features I don't want, the price should be of interest too.
To each his own. I don't have an issue with power per se (my NAT is 100 watts of Class A beastie) just at how it is usually delivered.
Like I said, I have heard at some length, in my home, the original Devialet and now the newer one owned by a friend...Mehhh is about all I can muster. The Einstein "The Absolute Tune" was clearly better and I didn't particularly love that amp.
Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions. The dealer that sold me the Benchmark is happy to take it back, but he'd like to sell me something that would be a better match for my speakers. He's a PassLabs dealer, so perhaps the 30.5 (unfortunately the XA is the only version now offered and the X is unlikely to come up used in UK) but he's also suggested amps from Auralic and Gato. More expensive, over-powered but I'll consider these.
Meanwhile I'll look carefully at the suggestions you've made. First Watt is an option but I'd prefer not to have an amp that uses more power than my existing SETs! Also they're probably not imported to UK.
Peter
Sorry for your dilema.... to these ears, digital amps have not come of age.
I guess no benchmark was achieved ...... :)
With 102dB speakers you need a very short and simple signal path. In fact, a 3W SE 2A3 amp will have more than enough power. This 2A3 amp should be two stages: a driver tube and an output tube. The volume control should be integrated into this amp and the driver tube should be direct coupled to the 2A3. I know this is hard to believe for those used to complex high power amps and inefficient speakers, but the best results, when you get into this kind of speaker, are from low parts count, no capacitors in the signal path, and a robust choke input power supply. It can be a challenge to engineer an amp like this but that's probably why so many users choose to build their own amps from a well engineered kit.
A friend tried the Benchmark with his Legacy Focus and was quite impressed initially. However, initial impressions faded to fatigue after a few weeks. Relief was found with a Rogue Medusa. More laid back and pleasant, but a bit too boring over time. Finally an all tube Rogue 100 watter ( KT 120's) came into play. Game over, no contest. The all tube Rogue was far superior to either of the other amps. With this all said, there has to be a better solid state option for something as efficient as the Uno. Nice low power units like the Lindell mentioned by John Marks would certainly be worth a look. If money is no object, I'd look at the Pass 30 series amps as well.
If money is no object, I'd look at the Pass 30 series amps as well.Or, perhaps one of Nelson's other gifted children like a pair of SIT-1s .
They represent the antithesis of the Benchmark design: simple circuit (one active device), zero feedback and stiff linear supply. :)
Click here for a great nudie shot.
Edits: 07/03/15
Yep...spaced the First Watt amps. Maybe the best fit of all.
High efficiency speakers love tubes. The only two ss amps I could almost live with are the Pass amps and the odyssey Khartego My system is all tube and so have been every system I have ever owned. Over the many years I have converted many people who love ss amps and now use tubes and would never go back
Alan
Apparently, there's certain design philosophy at the company, fixated on distortion figures being as low as possible - and everything else is tough shit for those fortunate enough to get a hold of their products.
HALCRO---Mehh!
Des
US MSRP $1,599.
NB, although rated 20Wpc, JA pushed it past 30W before it clipped.
I wrote (link below):
The AMPX was unfailingly musical, sounding both powerful and revealing. Some aspects of its performance reminded me of Plinius's 8150 integrated amplifier: a liveliness that was never undisciplined or "electronic," and its top-to-bottom coherence.
jm
I already know that I can live with < 40 watts from EL34 tubes. I guess watts are not all the same watts. The rack mount I don't care for, however. Don't know if I will always stick with tubes, though, but so far, OK.
I agree with you that the rack mounts detract from the Lindell. I believe this is identical except for the name tag and a more attractive front panel
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