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Last night I was listening to my ARC mono 100's...the heat pretty much drove me out of the room. So,a friend brought over a Krell ss amp...and sure enough the Krell ran even hotter!
Anyone have any suggestions for an amp...either tube or ss, that sounds superb and does not give off too much/any heat...Plus, I am not thinking of class D amps. I have never heard one that I liked that much.
My room is quite small, so a cool running amp would be a benefit.
Follow Ups:
I had an ARC D250 MKII.
Talk about noise (fans) and heat. 32 tubes. 450 watts at standby.
900 watts at idle and up to 2000 watts running tilt.
Plus the cost of tubes.
I could keep my 16' x 25' x 14' high ceilings warm in the winter.
Solved my bass control on my x Dynaudio 1.8MKII speakers.
The fan and transformer noise. The awful heat and large electric bill
with a, hold on to your speaker wires, a Carver LightStar 2.0.
Fantastic bass control. 45 watts at idle instead of 900!
No heat. No noise. Better bass control.
What more could you ask for?
Edits: 07/01/15 07/02/15
direct digital? like the new NAD 3020?
Worth a try because you should be able to find a 30 day return if not satisfied deal.
ken
"My room is not that large...measures appx. 15 x 18.
My speakers are the Magico M5's...which I love and don't want to replace.
My budget is appx $10K.-$15K, used is ok too."
*********
Now, we're getting somewhere.
15x18 isn't tiny or small. In fact, it's decidedly larger than the rooms which many 'audiophiles' have (no wonder they have soundstage issues). Hopefully, you've got at least a nine foot ceiling - or, better yet, one which slopes upward in the right direction, like mine does.
Here's the solution: You don't need another amp. You need new, energy-efficient windows, and this new-fangled thing called "air conditioning".
$10 - 15 K can get you BOTH. Has it occurred to you that your priorities may be mixed up?
You DO live in a reasonably modern area of the United States, right?
:)
once it heats up here in SoCal, the tubes are off and the SS amp (PS Audio 100C) rules for the summer. The Krell will pump out the heat due to the high bias level. The amps by Odyssey are really good sounding and don't run too hot. Many models to choose from and very reasonably priced.
By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.
Galileo Galilei
It was so hot today I shut off everything in the house that made ANY heat. TV? Stereo?
I went out in the garage and listened to my Tivoli table radio.
Than, this afternoon it RAINED like crazy for about 20 minutes and left us in a steam bath.
And yes, this is SoCal.
Too much is never enough
I hear you, it's like a sweat lodge around here!
By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.
Galileo Galilei
I finally turned on my house AC. When I went out about 10 minutes ago (1730) I felt RAIN.
It evaporated as it hit. Great. the definition of 100% humidity. Just like Florida.
Too much is never enough
I'll try to help you, but I need objective information:
What speakers?
What's your budget (for a new amp)?
What, in your view, is "quite small"? Quantify.
Apartment or other residence? Own or rent?
My music room, is a closet sized.....10' x 10'.
I have a pair of small (10" x 6" x 2") chassis 6aq5/6ab4 SEUL integrated tube mono blocks.
The heat given off is fairly insubstantial.
Steve
This was my second choice to the PASS X250 when I was looking for a new amp to drive my Magnepan MG3.6's.
Its a great amp, not sure if you can find them used as they were only made for a few years. Cost new was about $4500.
Its a direct switching amp that runs cool.
Here is the link to the specs
http://www.arcdb.ws/300.2/300.2.html
I use my 2A3 SET amp in the summer. It puts out very little heat. If your room is small and you're speakers are efficient enough you'll hardly notice the heat.
How much power does your 2A3 SET put out? I doubt my M5's will play nice with any amp with less than 50 watts/ch output.
Yup...my 2A3 is probably good for a few watts at best.
Still- it sheds fewer BTU's than my Scott 299A with push pull EL84's....that thing is like a nuclear blast furnace in comparison.
If you are looking to get cool performance and run speakers that require at least 50 watts of power, I smell some kind of sacrifice somewhere.
Good luck with this.
A good EL84 puts out about 20-25 watts. And that's a good solid wattage.
I drive my 86db speakers to ear bleeding levels with some juice left over. And like I posted previously - it puts out less heat then my solid state amp.
charles
Here's 20 EL34 tubes worth of glorious sounding heat, 10 per 250-watt monoblock. This worked out fine in the cool basement in our other home but since moving to our new place with a fairly small home office listening room, these had to go.
BTW, if you like the sound of tubes or most any other amp for that matter, stay away from these Brystons. They are the 'anti-tube', cool running, but cold sounding, sterile, dry, clinical, lean, and unlistenable.... for me anyway. I tried warming them up with a couple different tube linestages but was spending too much time trying to 'fix' the root of the problem. Ended up selling the Brystons. I'm not a Class D fan but I have to say that I preferred the Wyred4Sound SX-500 monoblocks better than the Brystons.
Unless you need hefty power, you might like the Ayre AX-7e 60wpc integrated amp. I now run the vacuum tube Rogue Cronus Magnum (x4 KT120s) in the winter and the Ayre AX-7e in the summer.
My Home Office Summer Amp:
My Home Office Winter Amp:
How much heat does a Rogue CM throw off? As I posted previously I use a Sherwood integrated S-5000. And I am surprised how little heat it produces. Obviously compared to bigger solid state and bigger tube amps. But one sweeeeeet sound!
charles
I really need coffee before i post!
The Rogue isn't a huge amp but my listening room is rather small and with the doors closed the Rogue WILL contribute to room heat.
I'm not sure exactly how much heat it puts out but I believe it is over 200-watts continuous. I'd have to measure to be sure. You can convert to BTU/hr by taking continuous Watts dissipation x 3.412 approx*.
I know that my Ayre AX-7e draws much less power and puts out less heat.
*Combine that with other items in the room like lighting, sun coming in the windows, computer, monitor screen, and human heat output, and it all adds up quickly. The typical rule of thumb for human heat output is about 100-watts, unless you're a Class D human of course!
My winter amp is a VAC Phi 200 that I love a lot - - heats my basement listening room up nice and cozy. But in summer it is too much (even in Minnesota!), so I use a pair of the Merrill Audio Veritas amps, and they really are not giving much up at all, and actually have some of their own virtues that are appealing (run with some very nice power cords, an important variable with them). I know others who like the Mola Mola amps based on the same Class D module.
I'm just suggesting that there may be more to consider in that arena... I know I was surprised.
Ric Schultz, respected modder/designer, recommends and works with these Hypex modules. Looks very promising. See link below.
The Class D Audio amps like mine do not use the Hypex modules but I've read that some folks that owned expensive and well regarded high power tube amps have switched over.
I've also read that some folks prefer the lesser known companies (Class D Audio) and newer technologies (Hypex) to the mainstream offerings (Bel Canto, NuForce, etc), especially with various tweaks and modifications that might be cost prohibitive in a production product.
In my experience, the very revealing nature of my modded Class D Audio amp, demands very high performance from everything proceeding it. Could it be that dislike for this technology is actually an issue now revealed upstream? Could it also be that the lack of coloration (distortion) of other more conventional technologies is what's missed?
Bill, I'm not suggesting that any of the above is true in your experience. Just general food for thought for others that have tried this technology and dismissed it.
I have listened to the Mola Mola amps and frankly they left me a little 'cold', pun intended.
So far, the only Class D amps that I have heard that impressed me were the Rowland 925's & 825.
They were superb, but a little out of my comfort zone- price wise.
Have some of mine!
The sound is worth it. In the summer I listen in the early morning. In the winter it's a nice heater for the room!
.
833C DHT output tube fed by triode-strapped 6E5P driver tube in a direct coupled two-stage design. 2.3kV plate voltage on the 833C; A1 operation to 40W, A2 after that.
Edits: 06/29/15
Well, it looks incredibly cool but with 2.3KV of plate voltage I'm thinking more along the lines of RF power amps!
Who makes that amp? Who builds such a thing with 2.3KV on the plate! ;-)
Here's my build thread over on DIYAudio:
That's awesome!
Thanks for all the replies so far.
My room is not that large...measures appx. 15 x 18.
My speakers are the Magico M5's...which I love and don't want to replace.
My budget is appx $10K.-$15K, used is ok too.
I had to sell off a fully restored and upgraded pair of Dynaco Mkiii monoblocks with KT-88 tubes. I loved those damn amps but the heat was enough to make you crazy!!!!Eventually --- I bumped the tube gear down to an EL84 type. Life is cool and tubey again. I'm running an integrated Sherwood S-5000 and I no longer have any heat issues. Don't underestimate solid state gear. My NAD throws off more dissipated heat then my tubed Sherwood.
Edits: 06/28/15
YBA 3 and Rotel above 80 degrees and when the weather gets cooler I swing the interconnects and speaker cables to my Krell. This Krell runs class A to 50W but that's the majority of my listening.You have to find a cool weather amp and a warm weather amp or play a warm weather amp year round.
Edits: 06/28/15
I used a pair of Channel Islands D200's for several years. But they are class D which you have ruled out. I guess that leaves a Class A/B SS amp as the best choice. I also use a Odyssey Stratos which sounds best left on all the time but does not generate much heat.
Channel Islands D200's do not sound real. Nice hi-fi, but not music. I owned them for a year and could never get past the artificial sound and the awful transformer humming, easily audible from ten feet away.
I never had any problems with transformer hum. My pair were dead quiet. I have no complaints about the sound. Most of my summer listening was short and mainly internet radio. I spend a great amount of time outside during the summer months.
...it's a problem for me, too.I'm running a pair of Manley Ref 250s into my Thiel 7.2s in a 17 X 14 X 8 room and I'm not interested in finding a cooler amp.
I use a tall, very quiet Lasko fan which blows across the front of the couch to keep us cool in warmer weather.
But realistically, most of my listening to the big system is done in cooler weather (below 70F outside) - this time of year we are outdoors on the patio by the pool much more listening to my iPod playing through the outdoor speakers.
Edits: 06/28/15
Marantz PM 15S2 never gets warmer than than room temp.
Mytek Dac gets HOT.
is barely warm to the touch after an hour or two of play.
E
T
What speakers are you using?
... A hot day or night and a small room will be hot with or without audio equipment.
Air conditioning solves your problem and gives you a much higher comfort level.
Smile
Sox
We (speaking also for Bill and Mick, I hope) all run the AC. It's just that really hot amps cause the AC to run non-stop, which creates an annoying background noise and deteriorates the line AC making for a less than optimal listening session. With cool running components, you can cool down the room, turn off the AC and maybe have a nice half hour session, even more so after the sun goes down.
It was even worse when we lived in Costa Rica; extremely expensive electric was a big consideration all around and the high humidity made matters even worse.
I guess we all wish we had noiseless recording studio ventilation systems but that would require a remodel costing as much or more than our audio systems.
It may sound strange to some but having summer and winter amps does make sense for some of us living in climates that can get very hot. We hit 117F a week or two ago. The average lately has been 110F and with some early monsoon activity, now the humidity is up as well. And it doesn't end until early October. Strangely enough, I still love our home in Arizona.
Time to go outside now. Work on the boat and sweat a few pints.
... I get where you're coming from.
I live in the sup-tropics on the water so I know a little bit about heat and humidity.
You mention 110F & 117F which is 43C and 47C. Who in their right mind would not use aircon, if available, in such temperatures?
I like the heat when I am outside but I prefer the house to be about 22 year round.
Being comfortable whilst listening to audio is extremely important IMHO. If you live in a climate with the temps you mentioned then I would think aircon is an extremely important, I dare say essential, part of one's environment irrespective of what audio gear one may own.
It seems many folks have summer and winter amps, as such it should be easy to find a good sounding summer amp.
I'll stick with aircon :)
Smile
Sox
I have AC, but like Vinyl Valet points out, it is noisy and it effects the line. Plus, I don't like running the AC when the rest of the house is fairly cool.
I am currently using a pair of Magico M5's...which are of medium efficiency. Really like this speaker and don't want to trade for a higher efficiency design. I also love tubes, but realize that they give off a lot of heat. The same seems to be true for all class A or Class A/B ss amps with power in the 150+ watts area. I may have to look at class B amps or the Naim's as suggested above. Not sure how they would sound with the M5's??
Edits: 06/28/15
I have to agree with Vinyl Valet in regard to Naim. Never was that impressed and thought it screamed solid state. Oh yes, and overpriced as already mentioned. If you're dead set against class D amplification, IMHO you can't do much better at a reasonable price than Rick's McCormack suggestion. My friend had an Audible Illusions Mod3/DNA 1 combination and it was superb.
Exactly. When I had big, hot amps, if I could get the listening room fairy comfortable everyone in other rooms would be freezing. Not the best use of energy.
IMHO, forget Naim. I've owned big and small Naim systems. Naim can sound very good but it's grossly overpriced, not even a good value at wholesale/used prices. It's not hard to find better sound at much more reasonable prices. In addition their DIN connectors really limit your cable choices. I also don't like the company. Rather than repeat myself, go to the Vintage forum and search for Naim is the worst.
My two favorite living audio electronics designers are Nelson Pass and John Curl. Based on that, I would first recommend Parasound's very reasonably priced offerings. If none of them work for you, take a look at the more expensive Pass Labs gear.
Good luck in your search. Really nice speakers. If you lived nearby, I would bring my modified Class D Audio SDS-254 over for a listen. I think it would be interesting.
class AB amp might be more affordable.If you have an access to a dealer, give them a listen.
I love tube sound ( albeit my preference is in DH SET types ) and Naim amps were the closest in micro dynamics, transparency and speed.
Edits: 06/28/15
certainly don't see why you'd need a class B amp. Class A is a different story. As an example.........
My class AB McCormack 150 wpc (8ohms) DNA-1 Deluxe gives off very little heat. The McCormack gets just slightly warm to the touch after being on all day - not even remotely close to really hot. Though it isn't an everyday occurrence, DNA-1's and DNA-2's (both of which would easily drive your spkrs. - my spkrs. are 88db) do come up for sale used, and sometimes with upgrades already done by Steve.
A/B amps will be MAX about 50%+ efficiency. 'A' amps lower.
If your speakers can 'take' less power and still satisfy, that is the way forward. Maybe 100 watt SS amp will kick out less heat than your ARC.
Too much is never enough
They ran extremely cool since they are class B all the way and sounds much better than any class D amps I have heard to date.
NAC500/NAP500 would be a minimum to drive Magico Q5.
d
Edits: 06/27/15 06/27/15 07/06/15
why opposed to class D?
Ok, never mind I read your response.
Good luck in your quest,
Chip amps, such as LM3886, run very efficiently, and produce very little to almost no heat, even when cranked. They are NOT Class D (which doesn't sound "real" to me), but Class AB or B and sound excellent.
I owned BAT VK-60 monoblocks and sometimes could not use them in the summer (I have no AC). My electric bill was 30% higher when I did use them. The chip amps I have now sound better (yes, they do), and I leave them on 24/7 because at idle they consume a little more power than an alarm clock. I put my hand on the heatsink after a blowout session and it hardly feels warm.
I never need to replace a tube or a fuse or fiddle with bias (didn't with BAT's anyway, but you probably do). These amps will sound exactly the same every day until the PS caps fail in 15-20 years.
Peace,
Tom E
FYI, the LM3886 is a class D design. here's a link to the TI page confirming this.
http://www.ti.com/product/lm3886
Sorry about that, I was thinking about the 3116.
why didn't you just delete your stupid post instead of responding to yourself?
Class A or high-bias AB designs are just going to run hot. Hotter still if run on low-impedance speakers.
If you don't want Class D, you're looking for lower-powered amps, or lower-bias Class AB. Not sure you really want to do either of those.
I suggest iced tea, lemonade, or cold beer--and a bigger air conditioner.
Run small computer type muffin fans, Doesn't your ARC have fans in the bottom blowing upwards? ad a couple fans blowing across the top say to the rear.
I use surplus 220 volt impedance prtected fans whihc will run a half speed when plugeged in to 120 V
Wouldn't a fan only move the heat out of the amp and into the room more efficiently? I don't think that would solve the problem of heat in the room.
Yes but it dissipates the heat better instrad on concentrating it in one spot. If no AC you can direct it out the windows or even simply out the doorway.
I have actually tried a couple of additional fans and like Abe stated, it simply moved the heat more efficiently into the room. Not the answer unfortunately. I like the M100's a lot, they sound great to my ears...as do all of the D series amps; but I cannot take the heat anymore. Plus living in LA means many hotter days. So, I'm looking for something with the same sonic signature as the ARC's but with a lot less heat.
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