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62.44.135.244
You don't have to own it.
Mine is the Fi Audio 2A3/45 mono blocks - $3200 when I bought them.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
Follow Ups:
A simple rule;
$1 per watt is a nice start.
BEL 1001. The latest version, Mk. V, is preferred. Mr Brown passed about 6 years ago; he hand made these in his home, and tested them for months to fine tune them to his liking, they occasionally show up on used audiophile markets for ~$700-1000. 50 W Class A SS, but best when a toggle is switched in back and they are used in pairs at 200W bridged.
Very tube like; I have (or had) Rowland 6, Hovland Radia, McCormack DNA-1 modded, MF Trivista 300, ARC Ref 110, ARS Sonum Fliharmonia, and other, and keep coming back to the Bel's for my main system. Plain as a barn, but honest, and musical. IMO.
For musicality and a bit of midrange bloom, the Dayens Ampino:
http://www.audiothesis.com/#!ampino-integrated/u5pbo
For neutrality without being clinical, the Dayens Menuetto:
http://www.audiothesis.com/#!menuetto/izcci
Luxman L-430.Used in almost perfect,clean condition for $162.
With most other amps,I am thinking about how the amp sounds.With the Luxman,
I am listening to the music.Also,a used Yamaha MX-1 for $250.
AB International
Mine is a custom amp built from the 540.2. ($1850):
Two channel amplifier
330w per channel @ 8 Ω
540w per channel @ 4 Ω
600w per channel @ 2 Ω
Balanced XLR inputs
Unbalanced 1/4" inputs
Stereo/Parallel/Bridge switch
Ground lift
Selectable input sensitivity
"Soft Clip" speaker protection circuitry
11 LED "VU" output displays
3 temperature-actuated, 2-speed fans
Compact, 2-rack space
Yamaha vintage M-60, FOR $480 , including service by master technician.
Just like the warm sound. For the money, excellent purchase IMO !
Transcendent Sound T8-LN
20 WPC OTL tube amp of the sweetest and most detailed and natural sounding music maker I have ever heard. And the BASS is all there, and all tight. Drives a pair of Reference 3A DeCapo I speakers.
Bought it factory wired in 2000, still sounds incredible with all original power tubes!
THIS caught my eye on the Transcendentsound site.
So ridiculous it MAY actually work. As a matter of fact, I can't think of a reason for it NOT to work well.
You could make these for 200$ per all day long, with an inexpensive plate amp.
Set up a production line in my garage and make 'em 10 at a time.
Too much is never enough
nt
yep, it's a great implementation of a great concept.
Wasn't actually Bruce's invention, but one of the audio techies who participates a lot on that board.
Tube: Rogue Audio
Solid State: Pass Labs
An immensly satisfying little amp for the money. Love those el84 tubes!
My Parasound Halo A21 since owning it has brought tons of musical satisfaction.
.
d
Edits: 07/06/15
I can already hear the sound of some of you urinating on me already. I've never done it, but it sounded like a really good response to the question :)
Hey I liked it!Probably the best response yet!
That's up there with my fantasy of driving down the road and seeing a really good vintage tube stereo sitting on the curb on trash day.
Funny - my younger fantasies involved Barbara Eden in I Dream of Jeannie.
Edits: 06/25/15
Trends TA10.1
if you have speakers that are sensitive enough :)
For the buck I'm talking about, i.e. US$700. See the link below.Of course there are better amps but any I know of are much more money. And of course tastes vary: SET fans aren't going to like it.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
Edits: 06/24/15 06/24/15
I use modernized WE 91A 300B mono clones in my main system and love my modified SDS-254. Untouchable at the price (kit on sale right now at $299).
I've used a stock ( other than a MSA powercord ) 254 for a few years in my HT/casual listening set-up. It rotates in this setup with a Latino ST 70 ( also mentioned in this thread) depending on mood and season. Needless to say, in AZ. it's definitely in system during the warmest part of the year. Paid around $650 for it fully assembled. Similarity here is that my main system amp is also a SET. Bottom line is the 254 is a stunning bargain even at its assembled price.
I've been thinking about assembling a Latino ST120. In brief, can you tell me how you would compare the 254 to your ST70?
Completely agree with you about tubes and AZ summers. In the past I've had some beasts like Joule Electra and big CJ monos. Learned my lesson; AC cranking/noisy and still too hot in the listening room.
Of the various mods I performed on my 254, elimination of the gain pots was the biggest and most worthwhile improvement. Most folks determine the ideal gain in their system, measure the pot values and replace with a high quality resistor at the circuit board. In my case it was easy. I'm using a TVC pre and was able to just install a silver wire short in both circuit board positions.
Glad to hear that you're enjoying your 254 as much as I'm enjoying mine.
Thx for the compliment. As far as the 254 (stock) vs.the Latino ST 70.....if I could only take one to the "desert island", it would be the ST 70. That said, the 254 is half the price and the convenience factor for everyday listening is off the charts. The tube warmth and more organic qualities of the ST 70 win the day over time, but the differences certainly aren't night and day. BTW, I did own the ST 120 a few years back and it's a wonderful amp as well.
Well, I think you pushed me over the edge. Time to start lobbying the wife for some cash. I love building/repairing/modifying and the 120 looks like a fun project.
My 254 is driving a recent revision pair of Merlin TSM speakers; very revealing and accurate without being harsh or analytical if that makes sense. I'm really liking my modified 254 and it still isn't completely broken in. No big complaints at this point. But your description of the 70/120 really helps. I can see why you like both and I think the 120 and Merlin will be a match made in heaven.
This all fits in nicely with the other discussion about summer and winter amps.
Thanks again.
Not sure how efficient the Merlin is, but the ST 70 may be a moderately cheaper alternative. I kept it over the 120 because of the wide variety of power tubes ( 6L6 thru KT 88 ) I could use. I was also drifting toward more efficient speakers and extra power of the 120 was not essential. For the record, I did like the 120 with KT 120's. The 70 sounds great with Genalex(re-issue) KT 88's. Others have found the Genalex (re-issue) KT 66 to be a winner.
Mick, can't thank you enough for steering me in the right direction. The TSM is an easy load and relatively efficient at 87db/W/m. Yes, the ST 70 does make more sense; less cost, less heat and output tube variety. I have lots of NOS 6L6 tubes (I do a lot of guitar amp work) which I've never used in an audio application so that should be fun and informative. Thanks also for the other output tube recommendations.
you appear to approve of the brand, just not the model?
thanks for explanation.
roger wang
BTW, did you notice how nice Tom's site looks now?
VERY professional, and certainly in line with his product!
Cheers,
Dman
Analog Junkie
I have a dual mono SDS254 and upgraded to D Sonic M3-800M mono amps which are a great value around $2400 and a very good upgrade while keeping the power of the ClassD amp with cleaner mids and highs
... he would write good manuals to go with his kits and modules.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
I mentioned this to Tom back when I got my 254, and he said he was "working on it"...
Let's just say it's a good thing I don't need to switch between the Single ended and balanced inputs (or need to invert phase!). That could be a game ender if wired incorrectly. YIKES!
Still getting a handle on the SQ, but it seems that there is a (nice) surprise with every recording so far...
Irony is that my CD player crapped out just before I left for my Canada excursion. Now I gotta repair that...
Dman
Analog Junkie
I would like to nominate my B&K Ref2220 which cost me about 1200 in the mid 90's. Huge sound, non fatiguing. Maybe too rounded on top end.
I am enjoying the nap100 I just bought too. Bigger sound than it should have. Balanced top to bottom.
Neither amp draws attention to itself and will change with what is upstream.
Both will play nice with any reasonable speaker.
Agreed on the B&K amps. My EAR 834P based vinyl system powered by a B&K Ref 200.2 makes my modded Maggie II-B speakers sing. The B&K cost me $750 used a few years ago. Heck of a bargain!
High current-last forever-very revealing. If possible, get the amp with the tube front end. (Fet Valve 400R and 600R Hybrid Power amp).
I bought it in 2003 and upgraded it to an A later.
E
T
This is a tough question because you have to weigh the price (not just what you pay but what you can sell it for - the NET cost) and performance.
I like those cheap Class T amps for sounding remarkably good for less than $200 (some less than $50). In direct A/B comparisons a panel of listeners (myself included) found one to beat out some $1-3k Power amps. The limiting factor being it was something like 5 or 10 watts but still.
Then there are your high quality tube amps like the Audio Space Mini-2SE and the Line Magnetic 211IA around $1600 both of which put out a lot of great sound, built well, and sound rather good indeed. Antique Sound Labs AQ 1003 DT and Jolida's 302 might also be included.
If I go further up the line to more high end pretensions - in that $1800ish to $4k range I like the Roksan Integrated amps for being surprisingly sweet sounding and having some ability to create some ambiance (which eludes most SS). Heed Audio makes some nice sound, First Watt is rather excellent albeit limited in power.
My long time favorite, the Sugden A21a, would be a consideration though I feel the Audio Note I-zero has taken it over because it sounds better and is about $1500 less money. However it has less than half the power and less features and doesn't have the seemingly robust build quality of the Sugden.
I'd have to include my Audio Note OTO - Anytime you can own a product for 12 years and be able to sell it for more than you paid for it - well that is an infinite bang to buck ration when the buck is $0. And they wonder why I am "enthusiastic" about certain items in their line-up.
Easy builds.. Few parts :-) with glorious sounds.
By ANY yardstick
Lepai 2020a $30 ($15 open box from Parts Express)
with decent interconnects and speaker cable this has pretty amazing sound quality per dollar.
Runner up:
Musical Paradise MP-301 Mk3 $339
I accumulated 6 of the things ALL made from Fake parts..(yes V dumb) including the Ta 2020 chip... on a Very poorly designed circuit that isn't even close to the Tripath Datasheet circuit.
Does More need saying?
How can one tell the fake parts from the real in this case?
in the US? In countries adjacent to China these are four times costly. Equipment 'dumping'? They may have also tuned the ones to be sold in the US.
Bill
They cost the same in Europe ie about £20 incl. p+p.
Why would they cost more nearer to China?
Is somebody being ripped off?
In India, on Amazon.in, the 2020 costs $75. Ripped off.
That higher model that sells for $50 goes for $200.
Thats why I wondered if there was dumping involved.
Better to buy it on Amazon.com
Cheers
Bill
Marsh Sound Design A400. 200/channel that is as good as money can buy says REG of TAS. Richard Marsh holds many patents on devices used by manufacturers of high-end equipment. Can probably be found used for about $500. An incredible bargain. Even the A200.
N/T
I always second Odyssey gear.
When I was in retail, I had the opportunity to become familiar with:
Accuphase
Air Tight
Art Audio
ASR
conrad-johnson
McCormack
Pass
and many more excellent products.
An Odyssey Audio tricked out Khartago stereo amp is serious bang for buck at about a grand.
add to your post the fact that you can buy two mono blocks tricked out to the max for about $2K. Good enough for the Magico folks, and that's saying a lot.
gary
Gary
My Mono Blocks are upgraded....
I bought these used 10 years ago. Had them bench tested and found them to be incredibly stable, doubling down to 2 ohms. They power my Martin Logan Ascents, a tough speaker for amps, with no problem. Weigh a ton and the toroidal ring is massive.
Yes they were animals. I had the EX4420 the year that had the 70amp output and pro10mc preamp. Great system for a great price. Of course I bought used, it was about 8 years ago. Kept the preamp much longer than the amp
B&K was a good company I thought. Evidently their relationship with Motorola wasn't enough to keep them going. As a WNY resident the fall of that company is unfortunate in more ways than one.
As you like to say:
"Think before you open your yap."
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
and new ones at around $3500. unless you're talking last century.
roger wang
Insanely over priced gear because Gilbert has no idea how to do manufacturing in any intelligent way.
He'll sell you a three thousand dollar amp with no faceplate, but if you want one it's three hundred bucks.
Why three hundred bucks for a faceplate? He buys them ONE AT A TIME.
He's the 'anti Rogue Audio'.
"A lie is half-way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
-Mark Twain
Not sure why you feel compelled to attack one of the truly creative and honest designers in high end audio, but just to get the facts straight, the CS2 integrated is sold with a face plate. You can get it without the face plate for a savings of $375. As for the cost of the face plate, I don't see how he could bring it down by mass producing them, since he hand builds the components himself, on order. It seems to me that ordering more parts than he can use would drive prices in the wrong direction.
Meanwhile, In my experience, Blue Circle gear sounds as good as, or better than, anything else at a given price point, and the company provides excellent service and B.S.-free information.
Rogue may also be great, but your critique is a little out of whack.
... that it's a good thing.
But I haven't heard any past 2005. It is rumored that they changed/improved their sound. I can't comment on that.
I can say that given what I've heard in the late 90s and early 2000s: their stuff has been muddy, with recessed treble.
This has been corroborated repeatedly by potential consumers, & reviewers.
But, - I wouldn't paint with a broad brush and make the same ignorant, (someone who has no listening experience whatsoever), comments.
Funny that Blue Circle & Rogue have similar price points. It's not like one of the companies is a Halcro or anything......
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
BC is not for the superficial tool who is only focused on price and too stupid to investigate, listen, & compare. Yet still spouts off cowardly, ignorant bullshit...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Apparently Blue Circle is for people who base the sound quality of something on its price tag.
Gee, Gilberts stuff keeps getting better as his company gets smaller and his prices go up.
"A lie is half-way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
-Mark Twain
""Apparently Blue Circle is for people who base the sound quality of something on its price tag.""
Apparently not: as that is YOUR criteria. There's actually a consensus of people who feel that their products perform much better than their low prices.
This is amongst non-ignorant people, (& reviewers) who actually LISTEN & buy and praise it.
But then, I don't expect certain people to go out and acquire the knowledge it takes to formulate a reasonable opinion.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Sordiman, you are wasting your time with these idiots....there's old Abe..never heard BC gear and is some authority on quality and looking at his pictures, is oooooone anal retentive son of a gun...then there is this mbnx01 cat who somehow knows about the financial underpinnings of BCA (aka "running it into the ground blah blah"). These guys have some axe to grind and I swear get very hot and bothered (down there) when there is a simple mention of BC. I have seen them all...beaten up and bloody on the school yard...planning their triumphant reemergence and revenge...Haaaa!!
Are you kidding me?! With so many great sounding audio products out there, there is no need to champion those with visibly shoddy build quality.I have no issues with how Blue Circle products may sound, but based solely on what I've seen of them "under the hood", I would never buy BC.
Thats all. We are all entitled to our opinions and purchase criteria. If that hurts your feelings, I'm sorry.
Blue Circle Audio "under the hood" construction techniques:
Edits: 06/25/15 06/25/15
There is also no need disparaging products either...is there Abe? You don't see me going after that mass market Yamaha integrated you got sitting in that clean room you call a listening environment do ya? You're such a twit....you start shit with people then cry victim for anyone challenging your "opinion". My particular issue with your approach is that you attempt to soil the reputation of a hard working and tremendously talented designer for what gain?? It's a bully pulpit, you friggin know it and continue trying to sway potential interest away from this manufacturer. I have had close to 16 years of absolutely trouble free operation, with 7x24 operation on my BC gear. Run that Yammy for that long and you tell me....
I'm not crying victim, I never do. You and anyone else are welcome to challenge my opinion. It is after all just an opinion.
It's like the old school enthusiasts debates over Ford vs Chevy, BMW vs Audi, British cars are crap, etc. Are we not allowed to share our opinions on audio gear?
And FYI, I have never owned a Yamaha integrated amp.
I'm hesitant to jump into somebody else's fray, but I think the other poster objected to what he saw as a frivolous attack on Gilbert Yeung's integrity and competence, neither of which need to be called into question. To say you don't like the aesthetics of his circuits is one thing, but to accuse him of "shoddy" build quality is another. That's closer to slander than to expressing an opinion about your preferred gear. Now, if the build quality actually was shoddy, you'd have a point, but it's not. The "snot" is there for a reason, as are all the other parts. If you can find a bad solder joint or misaligned wire in those photos, please point it out.It may be that your comments were meant to be fun in spirit, but that don't quite come across that way, for some reason.
As for the car analogy, you've lost me. I can't find a single substantial similarity between the two examples other than that preferences are involved.
Edits: 06/25/15
".... I can't find a single substantial similarity between the two examples other than that preferences are involved. "
Lets just say that I prefer not to buy equipment built the way that Blue Circle Audio products are built. That is my preference.
Let's just say I prefer to slander others and I am fine with my "SONY" mass market crap....like I said Abe....keep it on 16 years solid....same thing for your fan boy favorite Rogue...then you can say what you want about build quality....you're one of the finest passive aggressives I have come across ....well done....such a command of it you display......
slan-der
"the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation."
I have said nothing false and the pictures I posted don't lie. As I've said numerous times, we are all entitled to our opinions and purchase criteria and Blue Circle does not fit the bill for me. Is my opinion of their construction method too hard to accept? For a few, sure. But many others agree. It is an "opinion" after all.
I didn't bring up Rogue in this thread. As popular as they are someone will inevitably mention them.
And I have no SONY equipment in my system at the moment. The best SONY piece I ever owned was probably the XA7-ES CD player, hardly mass market crap as others will attest to.
.
It's interesting that the only ones perpetuating the conversation are understandably BC owners.
I stand by my "opinion" but I'd be willing to bet that if you laid out 10 products from different high-end manufacturers all with their lids open, even a child will call out BC over the others for construction technique.
So beat me up for my opinion, I don't really care.
.
I'm not the defensive one whining about inmates with differing opinions than theirs.
1. Proves to be utterly reliable over a long period of time.
2. Continues to sound great year after year
3. Keeps you wanting to experience it.
While not cheap, my Threshold Stasis 3 has met those criteria.
Cost? Paid $1950 including tax in 1981. Or about five bucks a month + juice. :)
Parasound Zamp V3.
400 new or (in my case) 75 s/h.
It's only drawback is limited power.
Great single ended amplifier if you have efficient speakers. Can use anything from 6V6 to KT150, plug and play. Amazing sound and can be fined tuned by using various rectifiers and input tube. The amp cost about $1200.
Is Dennis still making amps and putting them up on eBay? He just loves this stuff! My two favorite Dennis Had products from his Cary days include:
- AES/Cary SixPac EL34 mono blocks
- SLP-05 6SN7 based linestage
He also had a couple successful HAM Radio equipment companies before Cary Audio. HAM Radio is another one of his passions.
I second this. I have been using Dennis' amps for awhile and am consistently amazed at the superb sound quality every one I have tried presented. A phenomenal amp for the price.
ROTEL 1552 Mk2 amplifier 120 wpc approx $895 nothing else that I know of even gets close at anywhere near the price or build.
and didn't cost me a whole lot either. Well, I bought used, probably < $1000. My headphone amp cost me much less and is definitely one of the least expensive ways to enter this hobby -- although I did it at the end after accumulating all my other gear.
aa
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
$3200 sounds a bit steep for best bang for your buck, my Balanced Audio Technology VK-200 wasn't much more than that but I wouldn't consider it best bang for my buck. My Dynaco ST-70 ($238), EICO HF-81 ($277) and Kenwood KA-3500 ($37 not working) are all excellent bang for the buck but they all required rebuilding because of their age so I would have to give the edge to my class-D Onkyo A-5VL ($131) with a decent MM/MC phono section, a nice headphone amp and a very decent built-in DAC.
Edits: 06/30/15 06/30/15 07/06/15
$50-$100 on ebay, 50 watts/channel, lots of 'em out there. Very easy to recap (just a few 'lytics.) Dead silent, good imaging, clean clean clean, not a trace of grit, outstanding bottom end. I've compared them to my Manley 120s and they are definitely in the game.
The bigger BGWs are outstanding as well - several 750s and 250s in the studio have easily 80,000 hours on them, and sound like new. Just recap them every couple decades or so.
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
Nice amp. Drove the heck out of small Maggies. The fan noise was hard to live with in a home system.
Sure ta2024c amp for about $35 or SMSL tpa3116 based amp for $80. They need a preamp in front of them to sound their best and the Sure needs to be used with easy to drive speakers.
nt
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
the amp section powers my kids system today and sounds great. Nice preamp and phono section thrown in for a whopping $175 new. Drove my first Cerwin Vega to rafter rattling volume and did amazingly well on the current hungry Maggie SMGa pair that took their place. Never sounded harsh.
Now that's bang for the buck.
That's bang for the buck.
Paid a whopping $70 dollars for it when I bought it as a used amp that someone used as a trade-in on those new fangled transistor amps
Must be 45 years now, totally reworked inside and sounds great
Using it for the summer with floorstanders in a very BIG room. Love it and never need more, could use this as my primary amp forever. Bonus, always works great with passive pre. Generally $250 and generally still working perfectly, unlike much post Peter Walker Quad stuff I've bought which was often malfunctioning right out of the box.
Religion is the world's oldest profession
Class D Audio SDS470C.
Crazy good for only $700.00 reminds me of the NAD 3020 I bought new back when.
It`s that good !
I'd have to go with a Bob Latino ST-70 with built in attenuator.$900 with all the bells and whistles.
Edits: 06/22/15
He said "amplifier", not bag of parts! ;-)
Seriously, is that $900 assembled and tested with all the tubes? Can't be, can it?
$1185 + shipping WIRED with ALL tubes & EL34 output tubes
Still, not bad!
Another option is to buy it assembled with the cap upgrade, but without the tubes. Then buy a quad of Genalex KT 66's or similar, 3 NOS 12AU7's and 5AR4. Total nut about $1500, but now it's at full potential and can run in MUCH pricier company. Especially if mated with a moderately efficient tube friendly speaker.
.
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