|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
75.100.189.227
From Audiocircles.com:
"Class Warfare is Over....
The debate over amplifier classes ended with Stereophile's March, 2015 issue when Larry Greenhill wrote,
Quote
"The Prometheuses delivered better midrange and treble definition, greater depth of field, greater jump factor, and better imaging than any other amplifier I've heard in years...My last impression of the Prometheus was the same as my first: It's one of the best-sounding amplifiers I've heard in my listening room. Seven months after I began listening to it, its soundstaging, imaging, depiction of detail and speed and slam, and its exciting dynamic contrasts remain totally addictive."
try it! you know you want to!
Follow Ups:
considering my 2 decade old Dave Reich designed amps still easily demonstrate top-shelf classe-A sound quality, I can't imagine these class-D amps sounding anything less than superb ...
tb1
Why should one have anything to do with the other?? Your logic escapes me...
> > Why should one have anything to do with the other?? Your logic escapes me... < <
Simply:
Dave.Reich; w/decades of experience building high quality amps, some representing SOTA performance, therefore, his benchmark/standards/expectations developed over this extended period, in regard to attaining high'r-end sound quality, has proven quite high; irregardless of which amp-classification he's utilized.
I didn't realize that Dave Reich was the original designer from Classè,
I heard a pair of DR3s bridged to mono driving a pair of Apogee Scintillas in Holland a few years ago. They sounded very good, although ultimately we preferred the sound of a Sphinx Project 16...a very rare Class A hybrid amp that has an adjustable power supply for low impedance loads.
Those old Classè amps are true classics.
A DR3 will drive 1 ohm , bridged ....? is this at your usual 69db listening level ...?
Edits: 03/11/15
IIRC, DR specifically designed the DR3VHC (DR3 models=DR3,DR3B,DR3VHC) to drive Apogee Scintillas.
Yes, my Dutch friend had the VHC version.
not a fan of class d
but they sure beat a lot of class ab amp.
they are ultiately bit cold and thin, but they are more accurate then a lot of sub 1k class ab amp.
they will never reach tube amp quality though
Seems so...we were listening in the mid 80s to around 90db peak I would guess...so you know a few 1 ohm watts. Whether the amps were stressed or not I could not tell you other than they sounded ok and unstressed at the levels we were listening.
Are you saying that Dave Reich likes the sound of these Class D amps? This was not stated in your original post if that is what you meant. If so, then I take it your logic is as follows:
You have Dave Reich designed amps, which you think sound good, and Dave Reich likes the sound of the latest Class D amps, therefore you think these Class D amps would sound good to you because they have Dave Reich's seal of approval. Did I get that right?
If the Class D amps in discussion don't have Dave Reich's seal of approval for good sound then there is still no connection between the amps you like and Class D we are discussing.
What are the amps that Dave Reich designed that you own anyway?
Because class d, don't you know, is only suitable for low end consumer products, is second rate, and "broken"...
hahaha......
try it! you know you want to!
Everything from Classè that came after those early Class A amps were significantly worse sounding. If he is now making Class D products it is probably more for business reasons than sonics. Jeff Rowland ruined their line of products doing the same thing. Old JR amps are quite good sounding...for pure SS.
> > Everything from Classè that came after those early Class A amps were significantly worse sounding. < <
No, prior to DR departure (& Glen Grue arrival), Dave designed a series of truly excellent medium powered, high current (w/tons of headroom) class-AB amps. Glen would soon phase these, along w/the pure Class A designs out, in favor of much higher power/lower current designs in which he thought the market required. Glen's Classe amps proved "significantly" worse.
Post GG Classe; they sound very "different" to the original designs (but then again, the vast majority of amps sound quite different to early DR designs).
(*) Glen Grue; perhaps thinking he was an electronic equivalent to DR (not within this galaxy Glen), removed DR signature from all his designed mother boards/amps, replacing them with his own. Therefore, certain DR designed models have Glen Grue signature printed on the mother board.
tb1
"series of truly excellent medium powered, high current (w/tons of headroom) class-AB amps."
Not sure if I have heard these models but some later ones I heard were nowhere close in sound quality. I have only heard the Class A models from the original designer I suppose.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
stop adding "get help" type comments; they don't end up "helping" anyone ... that said, I certainly understand your frustration here; considering the highly "speculative" nature of many of the other negative inmates/replies.
tb1
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Well it might be good but what also might be true is that you might fine the same unit for 1/10 the price elsewhere given their track record.
Does Philips make a class D amp?
Just wondering. It's frequently said here that if you haven't heard something, you have no opinion.
So much for that :-)
....whether they've heard it or not. ;-)
You can say THAT again.
I'm not likely to be bringing 12 large worth of amp home anytime soon.
So, for me, it is Academic how it actually sounds.
Too much is never enough
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Based on the sheer number of replies and the replies TO the replies, I'd say that Class Warefare is JUST BEGINNING.
I'd like to insert a 'keep it classy' joke here, but I'm about 5 minutes from crashing. Busy day.
Too much is never enough
I will only ever be able to get 10% of the sound quality!
Hmm...
Dman
Analog Junkie
:- )
nt
Dman
Analog Junkie
nt
nt
Dman
Analog Junkie
AA most definitely SHOULD have a like button. The silent masses who don't have the time or patience to get entangled could at least hit an up/down vote. Might work well to discourage bad behavior around here. As a web designer myself I know it's a lot of work - but in this case it would be worth it, it would be my priority #1 on this board
Religion is the world's oldest profession
C'mon! All you're doing is shoving a record into a table or two. It would take me all of 15 minutes to enable that feature providing there's a table already setup. If not, make it 30 minutes...
-RW-
There are tons of possible competitors to this amp. The person writing the review has heard none of them.....not even the other Ncore biggies (Merrill and Mola Mola). Check out what this guy HEARD: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1398132150&openflup&1338&4#1338
What about the latest .8 Pass, Boulder, MBL, Rowland, D'Agostino, Constellation, Dartzeel, LAMM, Audio Research, Soulution and a thousand others? How about the new kid on the block: Wells Audio Innamorata Signature?......What about some serious crazy tube amps? There are no real comparisons to anything that anyone can use to understand how the amp actually sounds compared to what else is available.....Just another rave review where the reviewer says its the best he has heard (and has heard very, very little). Meaningless.
The Ncore advocates claim its all over with the NC1200 amp module.....no way Jose. Another good amp...another day. It is not perfect.
...where the reviewer says its the best he has heard
That's NOT what he actually wrote. Unless we assume this journalist of thirty odd years (he wrote for Stereo Review in the early 80s) is contradicting himself, here is his actual statement in that regard found in the concluding paragraph of the review:
"My last impression of the Prometheus was the same as my first: It's one of the best-sounding amplifiers I've heard in my listening room. "
Like LTQO, I learned to read in elementary school.
I SORT OF reach similar conclusions from a slightly different direction.
12,000$ is a LOT of money. An amplifier manufacturer with the design talent pool of a Curl or a Pass or any of a half dozen other 'biggies' should be able to REALLY make an account of themselves for that kind of coin.
I've MET Bruno a couple times and he IS the Real Deal. He's forgotton more about that stuff than about 3/4 of the alledged designers KNOW.
Not to mention what Ric mentions about the REVIEWER. I don't know this guy from Adam. What does he value? What has he heard? And ALL the competition that is mentioned really should be considered, as well, for those interested in this stratospheric level of cost. But really, I know the Constellations I heard were 4x+ the cost and ONE of 'em simply FAILED before the test even got started.
Wait for the REST of the reviews to come in. If early sales turn into early USED sales, than I'd watch out.
Too much is never enough
I am glad to have read that review.
Firstly, the reviewer acknowleges right up front that a number of expensive Class D designs have had "qualified" success at best, not winning over hearts / souls so much.
Secondly, as a reviewer - he may or may not have had as much gear through his room as some of the perennial equipment chasers that frequent audio boards, but probably more than most - and probably has had more high priced gear than most to compare to, gear he has no particular investment in financially or emotionally or dogmatically (?)
Thirdly - and most importantly - he still loves it after 7 months, certainly longer than a typical review spans. A period wherein most "audiophiles" would have changed their system 10 times.
I doubt a version of this amp with half the power would be half the price, but it's nice to dream that could happen.
I'd love to hear one! But as I read the insanely predictable responses on this thread that regurgitate the same class D conversation so oft-repeated on AA, I guess I'll slowly be convinced that I don't have to hear one at all to form a very definite opinion.
Religion is the world's oldest profession
...Sad that every review in every rag makes every amp sound like some big sonic breakthrough - they're not.
Precisely correct. And as I have stated, unless you need efficiency and a cool running amp, there is no need to buy Class D as there are several outstanding traditional designs available.
The main attraction for Class D in my opinion SHOULD BE great value bang for the buck performance. Not stratospheric pricing. After all, the manufacturer does little more than stuff an OEM module into a box with little of their own R&D investment.
perfect linearity is another benefit worth holding out hope class D and similar topology types hurry up and mature to the point of making a choice to go this direction not only less risky but the obvious best choice.
And that's the problem - when virtually EVERY amp is given a positive review, reviewers cannot possibly heap enough praise on the amps that truly ARE breakthroughs - and us readers, without hearing them, can never tell.
That, in a nutshell, is my whole problem with reviews - they're 99% positive, and 80% raves. I don't blame people for rolling their eyes at another rave - but what if THIS one is actually accurate? The problem on AA is people don't stop short of calling this review false or at least going every distance to discredit it based on never hearing the amp, but that's just routine on AA now. Not a good place to share audio joy, and that's so sad.
One thing I LIKE about this particular review is he has an amp he sticks with - and compares to, over time - the old Levinson. It at least gives some historical reference. If I heard of a reviewer whose favorite amp (for actually enjoying music in his home) after 2 decades was still the Quad 606 like me, I would listen very closely to what he had to say. Even if his reference was an amp I didn't like, it would enlighten my perspective a great deal.
If I had one wish for all reviewers, it would be that they list their top 10 amps OF ALL TIME in their profile - just like they list associated equipment. That is their sound persona.
Religion is the world's oldest profession
Amplfiers may just be getting to the point where there are a few bad apples left, so harder to say bad, unless you give it to cab, his vernacular hits out more,Broken, bad, sterile ,unmusical, OK, sounds good, makes everything Else sounds broken.
See , easy Peasey to pick a winner .... :)
Edits: 03/04/15
True - the utter futility of trying to separate the sound of an amp from a particular pair of speakers in a particular room with particular equipment and synergies and music is in fact quite hopeless. In the right situation most any amp today should be capable if not a rave.
What I want to do is find a high quality recording device, sit in my listening position, record a few tunes, and post the results for all the loons here to review on headphones. Wouldn't it be great if that actually worked and we could all post our systems for others to hear from our listening seat in our living rooms (well, mine is in my living room). I would LOVE to post mine, it is sounding insanely good and given that I'm in a nearfield situation I think with a good recording device the result would be pretty damn close to the original song - which I would also post for comparison. I just don't know if it could capture the scale, layering, depth, and spatial separation. If so though, we need a "listen to my system" recordings board - assuming that could work at all.
Of course if that worked, reviews would be obsolete so I'm presuming it doesn't, otherwise it should have been done by now...
Religion is the world's oldest profession
By using some of these people's in-ear microphones:
http://dev.soundman.de/Or one of these:
https://www.neumann.com/?lang=en&id=current_microphones&cid=ku100_descriptionThe disadvantage of the former is that you will have to wear them so possibly diminishing your own pleasure.
The disadvantage of the latter is a price tag of $8000.
One would have to listen to the resulting recording with headphones.
PS: Peter Walker was once asked what the QUAD listening room looks like.
He answered that they haven't got one as all QUAD equipment has always been designed and built using nothing but measurements.
Edits: 03/04/15
I would love to hear close-ish. I can almost see it working on a nearfield setup where the front of the soundstage is about 2' from my nose - but goes deep and wide. I would love to play a few favorite tunes, switch DAC's, and see how well it is differentiated via headphones. If it came even close to the joy I've been experiencing lately, I would love to post the result. I would love for people to hear how my DSpeaker as a DAC is making me a happy boy.
If close-ish costs $8k, I'd think audio mags could/should do it - but I really can't see it working on a large system in a large room - I'd think the sound would come out rather distant. Then again - if the recording device is worn in the ear - why shouldn't it "hear" what the wearer hears? Now I have to try this!!!
I am going to read up on the links you provided when I get some time and start getting a feel for how this can be done - and how close cheaper alternatives can come.
Peter Walker also said that any amp while operating within it's limits should sound reasonably close to any other amp operating in it's limits (not an exact quote but that sentiment). I recall one of Stereophile/TAS finding that statement rather ironic given that his amps always had a special rather "vivid" quality. He also said that moving your speakers a couple feet in your room "should" have more of an effect on your system than changing one properly operating amp for another.
Religion is the world's oldest profession
To whet your appetite and discover what these things can do get hold of some binaural recordings and listen to them on headphones.
Headphones are a must, it simply does not work via speakers.To paraphrase: An ear-opening experience.
Peter Walker wasn't wrong about speaker placement vis-a-vis different, properly operating amps and amps in general. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the man and his legacy.
PS: You can build a 200W/8Ohm version of the Theta amp. You can find everything you need here:
Edits: 03/04/15 03/04/15 03/04/15
nt
try it! you know you want to!
nt
Religion is the world's oldest profession
So he preferred the Theta N-cores to a 16 year old Class AB amp that never was considered to be SOTA even when it was new...your point being? Class warfare over??? Man, its just heatin' up! Let's put it up against the new Pass XA series and see what's what.
"the Thetas' reproduction of it was the best I've heard in my listening room."
"But the Prometheuses delivered better midrange and treble definition, greater depth of field, greater jump factor, and better imaging than any other amplifier I've heard in years."
"My last impression of the Prometheus was the same as my first: It's one of the best-sounding amplifiers I've heard in my listening room. Seven months after I began listening to it, its soundstaging, imaging, depiction of detail and speed and slam, and its exciting dynamic contrasts remain totally addictive. I give it my strongest recommendation for inclusion in Class A of Stereophile's "Recommended Components."
try it! you know you want to!
Blah, blah, blah, hyperbole, hyperbole, hyperbole.
The reviewer compares it to Levenson....one of the deadest sounding amps I've heard.
I heard a Levinson monoblock Dynaudio high dollar set up w/Meridian Digital and not only was it sterile but the little woofers in the very expensive 6 foot tall (almost) speakers would bottom out on a bass heavy recording. Poop!
E
T
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Read the quoted text you provided again. This time note the qualifiers provided with each claim.
He also mentions Pass..
Yes.
" Pass Labs' XA60.5 monoblocks had proven their dynamic range with Benjamin Zander and the Philharmonia Orchestra's performance of Mahler's Symphony 2 (24/192 FLAC, Linn CKD 452). "
Do you have a point?
He mentions Pass. He later states that the Theta is the best amp he has heard. Ipso facto, he prefers the Theta to the Pass. Get it?
try it! you know you want to!
that's what the text indicated. It does not.
He later states that the Theta is the best amp he has heard.
Does this adjective clause mean anything to you?
one of...
Apparently, your "happy ears" cannot accept what's in print. Perhaps you're experiencing too much noise in your environment. :)
Read the last sentence. Note there is no qualifier:
"Two other (mostly) orchestral works benefited greatly from the Prometheuses' dynamic range and soundstaging. Pass Labs' XA60.5 monoblocks had proven their dynamic range with Benjamin Zander and the Philharmonia Orchestra's performance of Mahler's Symphony 2 (24/192 FLAC, Linn CKD 452). JA had noted that the "Resurrection" has huge orchestral climaxes contrasted with much softer sections in which a single instrument plays. The Thetas handled both extremely well, reproducing the solo instrumental sections clearly, then easily managing the huge climax 10 minutes into the third movement, In ruhig fliessender Bewegung. The second orchestral recording was our Recording of the Month" for October 2014: the performance of Bruckner's Symphony 9 mentioned at the beginning. In the Scherzo, the Thetas reproduced the full, surging power of the violins' emphatic, fierce fast pattern, coupled with pounding brass and drums. This is one of my favorite movements in the classical repertoire, and the Thetas' reproduction of it was the best I've heard in my listening room"
try it! you know you want to!
are we reading the same text?
Let's revisit what we find, shall we?
...full, surging power of the violins' emphatic, fierce fast pattern, coupled with pounding brass and drums.
Ok, the "surging power" factor is the best he has heard. Would you base the purchase of an audio component based upon limited factors?
I sure don't.
What did John(JA) think of it ....... ?
Lots of amps have superb measurements. Anyone, however, can view the horrible square wave response.
The reviewer doesn't seem to either....
What's more, if you pay attention to the text you might have read that "the spuriae are still all at or below –110dB (0.0003%) at the high power, their presence will be of only academic interest."
But keep the poo-poo coming...
try it! you know you want to!
I think the 10khz square wave performance DOES coorelate with real world listening pleasure.
Last word? No. Indicator? yes.
Too much is never enough
are going to keep parading around THD specs as if they mean something useful to the listener???
One of the worst sounding amps of recent memory, Halcro DM58 monos, has just as good or better measurements than the Thetas...so what?
http://www.stereophile.com/content/halcro-dm58-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/halcro-dm58-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements-part-2
Other models measured similiarly good. Sterile is the best word I can find for the sound...many others felt the same and eventually the company died. They used MASSIVE amounts of negative feedback...just like is prescribed by Putseys.
So, please spare me your numbers, we have been there, done that, got the lumps and bad sound.
amplifiers are two very different animals. There seems to be a relationship with negative feedback and comparator circuits?
One of the most generic abilities I find in class D is the ability to provide an uncongested output at very high gain (the subjective presentation of transparency or sterility aside). To my ears this is were even very large and expensive linear solid state designs begin to run into trouble and become fatiguing.
I can't speak to the technical differences in negative feedback between Putzeys UcD and the nCore circuits other than what is mentioned in the Theta review but I have had both in the house and I find the audible difference remarkable. Compared to all the switching amplifiers I've heard and those I've owned the nCores are simply more listenable. I'm suprised they haven't used them in a multi channel demonstration of large scale symphonic music. Hello!
While I use tube amplification I'm my main system and the little nCores in the studio I completly understand kuribo's level of enthusiasm. Larry Greenhill is Stereophile's subwoofer reviewer. Over the years I've grown to appreciate his descriptions and assessments of a systems ability to accurately integrate and articulate Basses and bass in general which just happens to be another class D highlight.
"Basses and bass in general which just happens to be another class D highlight"
Actually, when I have heard them played on well damped speakers the bass is overly tight and lacking texture...one note thump comes to mind.
So, I would also disagree with the quality of the bass from the Class D amps I have heard. Yes, they go deep but just like in the mid and upper ranges lack the texture of the real thing.
I even prefer my subwoofers to have Class AB amps rather than class D for this very reason. Even those with servo control have more texture and nuance with a non-switching amplifier. When I had IRS Betas, I tried Class D on the towers and found them terribly overdamped unless I loosened up the Q control (adjustable electronically on the Beta bass controller) to 1 or greater. With a normal Class AB SS amp or tube amp I could set it at critical damping (approx. 0.7) and get the right balance of bass control and texture.
You downplay and discount the stellar measurements, and you poo-poo the subjective evaluation as "blah blah blah hyperbole hyperbole hyperbole"...
Gee, if I didn't know better I would say you have an irrational prejudice. Guess if it doesn't have that toob color, it's just sterile. LOL.
try it! you know you want to!
THere is plenty of evidence that low THD is a poor indicator of sound quality...if you want to bury your head in the sand about that it's your perrogative and ignore what psychoacoustics is telling us about what measurements correlate with good sound.
But that might fly in the face of your irrational prejuidice in favor of Class D, right?
I simply related JA's comment that they were "superb". And the reviewer was quite taken with the sound. Apparently not everyone shares your prejudices. Get over it....
And by the way, check your dictionary-my choice of ncore is not an "irrational prejudice" because unlike you, I actually have a positive experience with them, as many others have.
Go post in the toob forum where your opinion might be relevant. Your "contributions", if they can be called that, in class d threads, are tantamount to trolling.
try it! you know you want to!
nt
try it! you know you want to!
"This is one of my favorite movements in the classical repertoire, and the Thetas' reproduction of it was the best I've heard in my listening room"
He is talking about the total reproduction of the movement, not just the bass, the violins, etc.
But keep trying....
try it! you know you want to!
"jump factor"
Reminds me of some girls back in college.
:)
So you have to spend upwards of $12,000 on a Class D amp that many Class AB, and Class A amps have been achieving sonically all of these years?
There are only THREE good reasons for going Class D:
1) You need efficiency in AC power consumption.
2) You need low heat output (goes hand in hand with #1).
3) You expect a reasonably priced cost efficient amp.
I guess #3 is out of the question. If this is the case, unless you NEED #1 and #2 above, there is no good reason for going Class D.
Who said you HAVE TO spend $12k on a good class D amp?If your are able to afford really high-end equipment, then class doesn't matter. If you're can only afford equipment in the entry-level price range, then class per se still doesn't matter but cost effectiveness certainly does.
I own a Pass Labs X150.5 now but before that a Class D Audio SDS-258 which I build from kit and DIY cabinet for $500. I've never heard a $500 amp that sounds better than the SDS-258 regardless of class , (in so far as it meets my preferences). The Pass Labs is a dubious indulgence of my old age; it's nicer than the Class D Audio but sure as Hell not 11x better.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
Edits: 03/04/15 03/04/15 03/04/15
If you want the Theta then you do have to spend $12,000 for it's Class D design, or should I say for them to stuff an OEM Class D module into their pretty casework.
In my opinion, Class D should be about incredible performance at a relatively low price especially when the manufacturer invests little of their own R&D in the design.
Theta is not doing much more than what you did with your DIY Class D amp, except that their case might be prettier and their pricing is ridiculous.
I.e. in credible performance for a relatively low price. But it is also about creditable performance in higher price ranges too.
If the Theta Prometheus seems overpriced, so do a good many class AB and class A amps -- being overpriced is an issue with lots of supposedly high-end equipment.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich
nt
try it! you know you want to!
That must be one helluva expensive power supply!
Expensive looking case too , has class -D arrived , it does seem so as more Jump on that band wagon , an all in one package like Devialet , does seem like a Gen-X product, one gen before us used consoles, now its back to all in one with digital/class-D , only speakers may remain the same..Now speakers can be taylored for "class-D" , ( and they will) same as they were for tooobys before and later SS, when this transistion takes place , i would not be suprised If class-D sounds better on those speakers than others ...
Regards
Edits: 03/06/15
"Theta's chief engineer Dave Reich collaborated with Bruno Putzeys of Hypex to develop the amp's Class D architecture."
Do you have information to the contrary, or are you simply speculating?
try it! you know you want to!
"Theta's chief engineer Dave Reich collaborated with Bruno Putzeys of Hypex to develop the amp's Class D architecture."
So what does this mean? He got a couple tips on the power requirements for his linear power supply design?
Does this amp not use the NCore NC1200 module?
You have to know that any amp maker that uses OEM modules is going to be scrutinized by buyers who at least have some idea of what's in the box. What are we getting for our $12,000 that another NC1200 amp doesn't have for say 1/2 the price?
Instead of posting opinions as facts, you might want to verify by contacting Theta and inquiring. That way your comments have substance and some truth to them instead of looking like knee jerk parroting.
And let us know where we can buy that nc1200 module amp for $6000.
try it! you know you want to!
I have no interest in a $12,000 Class D setup when there are proven traditional Class A AB amps for much less.
I have no need for high efficiency or low heat output so my choices are not limited to Class D. If I had to have Class D there are a number of sub $3000 choices available, but none sound very good to my ears.
there are amps at all price ranges. Everyone makes their own price/performance and value judgments with their particular budget in mind. Few would spend $25K, $50K or more for ANY amp.
There are people who choose certain class d amps not because they are class d but because they believe them to sound as good or better than other amps for the price. The efficiency and cool running are but frosting on the cake.
Obviously buyers of this amp would disagree with your opinion that there are comparable class a (have an example of a class a amp that outputs this power with this level of distortion?) and class ab amps for much less. There are lots of amps of all classes for less as well as for more...So what?
Of course you are entitled to your opinion. Just as those with a different opinion are entitled to theirs. Let's just remember it is opinion not fact.
As far as what the Theta and Hypex design relationship is, you are the one making the claim so the burden of proof is on you. Be aware that other manufacturers have worked together with Hypex to customize the basic ncore module into something unique to that maker. NAD is one. Do you have some info to support your contention that all Theta does is use the stock nc1200 module contrary to their claims of collaborating with Hypex? If so, please present it. Otherwise, your claims are simply empty and negative rumor mongering. Put up or shut up, as they say....
try it! you know you want to!
Here's my bottom line:
Unless there's a huge performance / price benefit of Class D, I'm not interested. There is in much lower priced Class D amps, but in the case of Theta with a price tag of $12,000 I am definitely not interested because there are other outstanding design choices that have stood the test of time for well under $12,000. I won't buy Class D just because it's Class D.
Yeah, the Theta might sound wonderful for Class D or otherwise. However, at $12,000 and no significant guarded intellectual property of their own, the Theta is too high risk for something that uses an OEM module that any other amp maker can decide to stuff into their own box at a lower price.
The risk of a huge drop in value is a real factor to consider especially if there's a good chance of other manufacturers using this OEM module.
We've seen this sort of thing before. Jeff Rowland used to charge an outrageous amount for their little ICEpower monoblocks years ago when ICEpower was just getting the attention of audiophiles. Amps with the same exact design soon became available from others, sans pretty box, for significantly less. Why? Because the manufacturer's cost of entry was low with little internal R&D investment. Buy a couple modules and stuff them in a box more or less. Some might swap a cap or add a linear power supply or whatever but the heavy lifting R&D is already done by the module maker.
You keep saying it's just a module in a box but offer nothing to prove it despite the info from Theta that they collaborated with Hypex in the design....
You say there are other choices "that have stood the test of time" for less than $12K. By that logic, no one should make anything new for more than $12K, and similarly, there isn't any amp out there worth more than $12K. Clearly that opinion has no traction in the marketplace.
Risk of a huge drop in value? Somehow I doubt many people considering the purchase of a $12K amp are looking at it as an investment in the financial sense. I also doubt anyone with deep enough pockets to buy it would shy away if it sounds as good as reported because of a loss when they decide to sell it.
Assuming all class d amps should be cheap because there are cheap class d amps simply does not follow. There are $500 tube and ss amps, as well as $100K versions. If you want to claim that all $12K amps are overpriced, that's your prerogative, and many would agree.
try it! you know you want to!
There's pretty strong evidence that there's a Hypex NCore NC1200 module in the Theta. What's to prove or unprove? According to the Stereophile article:Theta Digital & the Hypex Ncore NC1200 amplifier
Because class-D amplifiers generate high levels of ultrasonic and RF energy, such designs typically employ a passive low-pass filter between their output devices and output terminals. This filter needs to be tuned to a single load impedance. Speakers that have a different impedance may cause the amplifier to prematurely roll off the top octave—or, much worse, the filter's maximum effect peaks above the audioband.and further down the article.....
Theta Digital combined Putzeys's Ncore NC1200 class-D module with a linear power supply created by Theta's David Reich. Much of the weight of each Prometheus monoblock's 54.5 lbs comes from its 1.44kVA toroidal power transformer.
So Theta OEMs the Hypex NC1200 module, stuffs it in a box, and their contribution is a linear power supply to come up with a $12,000 pair of monoblocks. That's pretty straight forward. So what are we trying to prove again?
Edits: 03/05/15
Regardless of whether or not they have modified or worked with Hypex to customize the module, other amps with the ncore1200 and Hypex power supply are selling for upwards of $10K. Theta adds a very large linear supply and nice case work so I would think it natural they would add a premium above what others using the stock nc1200 module and power supply are charging.
By the way, still waiting for info on that nc1200 amp for $6K you mentioned...
try it! you know you want to!
Of course they collaborated and possibly modified the module! They all say that. That's just a tactic for the box stuffer manufacturer to save face and claim they have skin in the game. At the end of the day it's still Hypex who invested their R&D talent in developing modules for module stuffing manufacturers to employ in their products.
I never said there's a NC1200 based amp for $6000. Here's precisely what I said: " What are we getting for our $12,000 that another NC1200 amp doesn't have for say 1/2 the price?"
If there's not one for $6000, that's really too bad. Will there ever be?
Here's another thought.... OK, so my last final thought wasn't final after all since you want to carry on with this Class D love fest:
Lets just say that all NC1200 based amps are in the $9000 - $12,000 range. Why? Why are they so expensive? Is Hypex keeping module prices high or are the manufacturers pricing the amps high before the bottom falls out? Maybe they're testing the market to see what the market will bear until they all start dropping prices? Maybe Hypex is doing the same. Lets see what we can get for our modules then drop the prices as demand wanes.
Sure, price, value, and depreciation don't mean anything to those with endlessly deep pockets but I would bet that for many of us, we need to step back and ask the questions.
In any case, I'm not willing to spend $12,000 on a couple modules when there are more sensible choices.
Who is to say what is too expensive, not worth the asking price, not a good value? The market decides. And to date, there seem to be several nc1200 amps priced above $9K that are doing just fine. Manufacturers charge what the market will bear...Consumers vote with their wallets.
Do you base all of your purchasing decisions on the difference between cost to manufacture and sales price? I doubt it. There are much bigger margins in other industries. Sometimes better performing products are priced not on cost to manufacture but on how that performance compares to other products in the marketplace.
Have you heard this amp? I don't think so. So while you claim there are cheaper substitutes, you really are just speculating based on your prejudices and have no legitimate proof. You see $12K and a module and decide, without hearing it, that it is too expensive....
No, there are no nc1200 amps for half as much ($6000).
try it! you know you want to!
Are you asking me to prove that the Theta is not the best sounding amp in the world for $12,000? You're right I have no proof that it's not, just like you have no proof that it is.
I do know that there are a number of outstanding 'traditional' amps that have stood the test of time so there's no need to risk $12,000 on a technology that's still trying to 'get there'. Yup, that's just my opinion. But if it takes $9,000 - $12,000 get to where we've already been sonically with existing technology.... why bother?
I'm just voicing my opinion. The Theta monoblocks at $12,000 might be just the bargain you've been waiting for. I'm not willing to spend anywhere near that kind of coin for a couple OEM Class D modules.
> > You're right I have no proof that it's not, just like you have no proof that it is. < <
(big BIG sigh)
> > I'm just voicing my opinion. < <
voicing an opinion based on mere speculation, without subject matter/product knowledge ... well; you know what they say about "opinions" ...
> > The Theta monoblocks at $12,000 might be just the bargain you've been waiting for. I'm not willing to spend anywhere near that kind of coin for a couple OEM Class D modules. < <
This isn't about you Abe: those who'd be so-inclined to purchase a 12K amp ... lets just say they'd unlikely to be "willing" to utilize a KAB'd 1200 as the defining source. For VERY obvious reasons! I mean, how could "you've" been able to hear ANY amp's true capabilities, esp @the frequency extremes!?
Hypex may be pricing themselves out of the market.
Jack
Edits: 03/06/15 03/07/15
Going off on a bit of a tangent here, but Kuribo makes an interesting point, and you wrote an interesting reply. There is something of a parallel here in the light bulb/energy conservative industry. Why would I spend $10-$15 for an LED bulb when I can buy a plain old incandescent bulb for 30 cents? IF the quality of the light output from the LED were just as good as the incandescent, then the only reason to buy the LED is for the higher efficiency and lower heat output, right?
Don't even get me started on the bill of goods we were sold with the CFL (compact fluorescent) bulbs. "Lasts up to seven years", we were told. Ha! What they didn't tell us was the limit of the on/off cycling (starts), which according to one source was about 500, so if you turned the light on twice a day, it would last LESS than a year.
So, I'm wondering, what aren't the proponents of Class D amplifiers telling us, and why should I spend many thousands of dollars more to buy one or two, when I can use that money to throw lavish parties instead?
:)
Still off tangent a bit.... They also didn't tell us that CFLs need to be disposed of properly because of their mercury content. Unlike incandescent bulbs, you're not supposed to just toss them in the trash when they burn out. How many people walk their burned out CFLs to HomeDepot or where ever to dispose of them? I don't know, I'm just asking.
Don't get me started on low flow shower heads and small toilet tanks! ;-)
... on low flow shower heads
how easy it is to remove the flow washer. :)
Oh yes, I know the shower head trick. But there's no getting around triple flushing the tinker toy enviro-friendly toilet after a man dump. Sorry for the graphic.
it facilitates the initial "courtesy" flush. ;)
I like your positive attitude.
Why does any amplifier cost 12K ....?
these guys are up front about using a generic "core". Remember the Lexicon badged Oppo player? :)
nt
try it! you know you want to!
It is evident that your speed reading skills have failed miserably.They failed on your understanding Greenhill's conclusion in the last paragraph of the linked review and what is found in the seventh paragraph:
"Theta Digital combined Putzeys's Ncore NC1200 class-D module ..."
Edits: 03/05/15
nt
try it! you know you want to!
.
in the past with disc spinners. One of theirs was a whole Pioneer player inserted INTO their fancy box.
Perhaps they learned their lesson. :)
Good post. I agree
I am pretty sure that the power supply in the Theta is worth something. The power supply usually makes up the lionshare of the price of most amplifiers (along with the case or in tube amps the output transformers). Of course the Class D doesn't need the big, expensive heatsinks so that is one less cost...supposedly.
I won't begin to pretend it is worth $12K though...maybe half that price is fair though.
Well,IMO, no amplifier is worth 12K, by 20K it's all rubbish really. Speakers are different , for the most part cost is the expensive better than furniture quality cabinets, package and shipping cost adds up on top of designing , developing and assembly mostly by hand. Even then with today's manufacturing processes, it's all BS really, 100K speakers , etc that is.
Class-D is new gravy, well , Obviously .....
Regards...
Edits: 03/04/15
Anybody who spends $12K on any class of amplifier for home audiophile use has got far more dough than comonsense. As for Class D as you all know I would not touch one with a barge pole and that includes any Class A infected with mainly Class D.
Edits: 11/16/15
If it costs Theta $3K to make a pair of these monoblocks then you have your $12K right there. The usual markup is about a factor of 4x if you have the usual sales model of distributor and the dealer network.
So you have to spend upwards of $12,000 on a Class D amp that many Class AB, and Class A amps have been achieving sonically all of these years?
That's what he said:
"It's one of the best-sounding amplifiers I've heard in my listening room."
But, better than his $6k ML amp from 1999!
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Abe, you forgot one I think...
If you are auditioning amplifiers you should buy the one that you like the best in your system no matter it's "class".
Well, that's my opinion anyhow. The bottom line at the end of the day when all the cards are on the table and due diligence has been done is: BUY WHAT YOU LIKE! They are just TOYS after all and the buyer's enjoyment is the main parameter to maximize.
Implementation is way more important than the "class" IMHO...
73, Rick
.
As I mentioned below you can get the exact same nCore amps inside a NAD M22 for $4000.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
here in the states, it can be had from several sources for $3k.
So we're looking at a $9000 power supply / chassis premium on the Theta? Hmm.
Switching Apologist so much wants everyone to experience the beauty of the carrier signal.
Poor JA had to filter his gear because the amp freaked it out...
"As the Theta Prometheus has a switching output stage that produces ultrasonic noise that would overload the Audio Precision's input circuitry, I carried out most of the tests using, ahead of the analyzer, an Audio Precision AUX-0025 passive low-pass filter. "
nt
try it! you know you want to!
injecting large enough amounts of ultrasonic noise into your system that can overload input sections sure stinks to me. :)
nt
try it! you know you want to!
All input sections!
You listen to ultrasonic noise?
Now you're beginning to understand the point. I don't want to hear the interference generated by other components subjected to large amounts of ultrasonic noise.
You don't seem to know much about testing class d amps and the AP system.
try it! you know you want to!
Obviously higher in reality than on paper or JA wouldn't have had to filter.
Maybe you should do your homework before indulging in ignorant speculation...
try it! you know you want to!
I think you should pay attention to what RF does to the sound of your system...hint it ain't good.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
"As the Theta Prometheus has a switching output stage that produces ultrasonic noise that would overload the Audio Precision's input circuitry, I carried out most of the tests using, ahead of the analyzer, an Audio Precision AUX-0025 passive low-pass filter. "
Really?? Tell that to JA...
"Without the Audio Precision low-pass filter, the Theta's reproduction of a 1kHz squarewave into 8 ohms is obscured by switching noise (fig.2). With the filter, however, this noise is eliminated (fig.3), and a 10kHz squarewave can be seen to have a small degree of overshoot that correlates with the slight response peak at 77kHz (fig.4). "
The evidence is right there in Figure 2 with the fuzz on the square wave...you are wrong, it is an issue with the n-core...perhaps not as much as amps from the past but it is there nonetheless.
So, Bruno's white papers don't really tell the truth.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Cab ,
Do you think this amp would sound Broken..? And if so why are so many manufactuers pursuing ...? you have also stated on many occasions, specs mean nothing then why mention the sauarewave response , it could be benign like toooby 10-15% thd ...
By the way did you get to hear the Devialet with the correct speaker file, i do not recall if you had mentioned what you heard or not and lastly , i do prefer the polite , detail technical way you respond on that other Forum ..... :)
Regards ..
Edits: 03/04/15
Broken is a strong word...no I would not say it would sound broken.
What I have heard with all Class D to date (my exposure with n-core is limited to a couple of times hearing the mola molas) is the following (note they varied in degree between different technolgies, with Devialet sounding the best so far):
Harmonically a bit bleached. Overall sound is somewhat overly dry with highs that are not harsh but also not really natural. Bass is actually overdamped and a bit one note and lacking in texture, which is also related to the harmonically deficient upper ranges.
Overall a sense of synthetic to the sound.
I had the original Devialet in house for a couple of days and owned three other Class D designs (Ice based, Zap pulse based and PS Audio designed). The Devialet was not superior to the Einstein "The Absolute Tune" I owned at the time, which I also was not so in love with...it didn't stay much longer. The Einstein has been one of my shorter residing amps in recent years...which surprised me because I loved their OTLs...the hybrids are not nearly as good sadly.
Friends have owned a couple of different ICE and UcD designs. I have heard at length now three different Devialet models, TACT and Lyngdorf models, two different Sharp models and he reference monos from Nuforce (that was truly awful sounding with Piega TC90 speakers). All failed to sound like real music to me and to the others (all were later sold). The guy who now owns the Devialet in our circle is one who is notorious about claiming not to hear differences in different amps...he focused more on speakers in the past with mediocre electronics.
I have not heard the Devialet with the right file yet. The friend who owns the Thiels heard it with and without and reported to me that it tightens up the bottom end even futher but doesn't affect much else. That is the most I can report on that.
As for tubes, there are a number of not very good sounding tube amps as well...usually due to inferior parts (transformers in particular) and/or they adopt SS design techniques (lots of devices and lots of feedback). THD up to a couple of % is nearly inaudible if it is only low order distortion, but it is also level dependent.
It is really hard to make a good inexpensive tube amp as they are heavily reliant on good (expensive) transformers. OTLs should be able to be done much more cheaply than they seem to cost but doing them without feedback is a challenge that few have figured out.
I don't know of any properly working devices with 10-15% THD as long as they are not hard clipping.
300B
Depends on what you rate the power of this amp as I guess. It will make 5 watts with 2% THD...an acceptable level if it is monotonic in pattern.
If your speaker is 95db + and the room is small to medium sized it might be all the amp you ever need.
Interestingly enough,
when bench testing some tooby's , thd will continue to climb into the double digits before waveform is clipped. So even if you see 1%thd at 5 watts and 10% at 11 watts for eg. , the waveform is sometimes not clipped..
True enough...now the question is this: Will you hear that 10% at 11 watts?
There are two likely scenarios, which if you believe Cheever's analysis that audibility of distortion is level dependent (i.e. what becomes audible changes with level), then we could have the following:
A) A moderate sensitivity loudspeaker (say 88db/watt), which at 11 watts will still not be playing SO loud (still pretty loud). I would argue that with this speaker at those levels the 10% distortion might very well be audible because it is not loud enough for the ear/brain's own mechanisms to mask the now out of expectation pattern.
B) High sensitivity speaker (95db + or in a small room). Now with 11 watts it is loud and there is a definite possibility that the distortion generated by the amp is masked by the rising distortion in the ear/brain mechanism or at least it is more masked and less offensive than in the other situation.
This is of course true only if we make the assumption that the distortion is monotonic and follows, more or less, the ear/brain's own monotonic distortion pattern. The addition of feedback disrupts this pattern by throwing the relationships between the harmonics out of balance and creating new ones that otherwise would not have been there in the first place. An amp like you presented the distortion curve for is more likely than not to have zero or at least no global or additional local feedback...otherwise the THD dependence with power is usually different.
One could argue that this lack of hard clipping until well overloaded could be why a lot of people perceive tube amplifiers as having a higher headroom or sounding "more powerful" for a similiar power rating. It would suggest a much higher tolerance for non-clipped distortion than for clipped distortion, in which case the power delivered instantaneously by the tube amp is significantly higher than the same SS amp with feedback. Of course, if you wrap a tube amp up in a high feedback it will hard clip when pushed a hair beyond it's linear limits.
Did you ever read the articles by Peter Van Willensward? He found that a small tube amp could generate FAR higher instantaneous voltages than an equivalent powered SS amp. It did not show up with any steady state or even synthetic dynamic (e.g. square wave) tests but only with real live signals.
http://www.stereophile.com/features/357/index.html
Morricab,I have always said the reason why most perceive toobs can play higher with equivalent or less power than the same SS amp was because of their distortion spectra. SS are best at 33% of their rated 8ohm output and before the knee, only power before the knee is usable , well unless for Bass where the harmonic noise does not affect the sound or does so in a benign manner.
My original statement stands, most people choose amplifiers based on their sonics when clipped.
Edits: 03/05/15
and STILL clearly have a preference for some kinds of amps over others. We are talking maybe hundreds of MILIwatts, not even watts most of the time. Well below clipping even of your 10 watt amp example.
Sonic differences manifest themselves right from the get go...you don't need to push them to the knee to hear it. It is clear you listen very loud most of the time...my domestic situation doesn't allow for this most of the time.
Your original statement doesn't address lower volume listening adequately, IMO.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
nt.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
nt.
First twenty seconds... :)
Well it does appear the cheaper class-D amps dont sound as well as the Hypex, kinda like saying Tesla is over priced because one can buy cheaper electric cars ...
That's not exactly Abe's point. There are multiple amplifiers all using the same NC1200 core that vary significantly in price. It is more like comparing three speakers that all use the same drivers.
Another highly touted one is the JF525 , it's the little box bottom left...:)
The worst I ever heard a pair of Magnepans sound was hooked up to a pair of the Jeff Rowland ICE based monos (little ones, forget the model #). They were the 20.1 (the .7 had not come out yet).
A couple of years back, I heard the Rowland electronics (Corus pre and 725 amp) at Sea Cliff. I confess that I was not impressed as compared to many other combinations I've heard there.
While that was not a switcher only for the power supply and not output, it was a more expensive model in their line.
You are the one making claims based solely on subjective performance which means absolutely nothing to anyone but you.
try it! you know you want to!
that was obsessed with the specs and yet here you are...dragging them back out on parade. "Oh, look at me, I must be the best because I have the best specs!"
Except, as I already showed you, Halcro strode down that road a few years earlier...just a long line of "engineering driven" (read that as myopic and lacking understanding about what makes good sound just knowing how to apply more feedback to get those numbers where we like them) specs superstars that sounded like the duds they truly were.
There are ways to quantify sound preference, I even provided you links a number of times...you and these other autistic engineer types can keep putting your heads in the sand all you like, screaming, "It measures perfect dammit it must BE perfect"
BTW, in listening to a device under test, what else is there to judge it's sound quality if not a human listener??
The only objective metric for amp performance are specs. You mention first watt performance- the only way to judge objectively is through measurements. If you want to talk about something meaningful to those other than yourself, all there is is specs. Your subjective biases are meaningless...
Ncore first watt performance is about as good as it gets- distortion below the measuring capabilities of the test instrumentation. But of course it wouldn't sound good to someone addicted to even order distortion and tube coloration.
try it! you know you want to!
Doesn't understand the difference between observations about sound characteristics and preference. Sad. Doesn't realize that good observations about sound characteristics can easily be transferrable knowledge to others and can be nearly as objective as numbers.
Poor Kuribo, doesn't understand that specs tell nothing, literally nothing, about sound quality by themselves in the absence of correlation with observational listening. Doesn't understand that specs the way they are used by most manufacturers are nothing more than a quality control tool.
Poor Kuribo, doesn't want to know that the way in which low distortion is achieved is more important than the distortion numbers. Doesn't want to know that Geddes showed a slightly negative correlation between THD+IMD and perceived sound quality. Poor you.
Poor Kuribo, doesn't know or want to know the history of the numbers race and that other manufacturers have produced some of the most god-awful sounding amps with numbers as good as the n-core. Halcro is a perfect, totally modern, example...just bury your head it will be ok.
Poor Kuribo, doesn't want to experience the other side of amplification due to his biases. No big, expensive SETs or OTLs for him. I have tread on both sides of these two amp worlds and I report what I hear.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
nt.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
and gets reflected back to its inputs - especially given the high amounts of negative feedback required by switching designs.
You know, that concept of sending part of the output signal back to the input?
nt
try it! you know you want to!
to overload JA's test gear. Many of us choose to have zero ultrasonic noise.
Have all the noise you like!
Did you note JA said "The measured performance of Theta was superb"? Apparently you have bat ears....or are just looking for something to pick at, regardless of its relevancy.
try it! you know you want to!
And haven't grossly misunderstood any part of it. :)
"The measured performance of Theta was superb"?
Except of course for the poor square waves. Sorry, I don't find that simple measurements begin to tell the story of how a component sounds playing music.
If you purchase based upon specs, you should be happy. But then so do lots of less expensive amplifiers of different designs.
Perhaps you should frame the graphs and hang them in your listening room.
It brought out Morricab, CLass-D has no chance when Cab steps in.
A New standard Cab, time to pack up the little tooby's or better yet, allow Kuribo to do it for you ...
:)
Edits: 03/03/15 03/03/15
"the Thetas' reproduction of it was the best I've heard in my listening room.""But the Prometheuses delivered better midrange and treble definition, greater depth of field, greater jump factor, and better imaging than any other amplifier I've heard in years."
"My last impression of the Prometheus was the same as my first: It's one of the best-sounding amplifiers I've heard in my listening room. Seven months after I began listening to it, its soundstaging, imaging, depiction of detail and speed and slam, and its exciting dynamic contrasts remain totally addictive. I give it my strongest recommendation for inclusion in Class A of Stereophile's "Recommended Components."
Seems you have already decided how it sounds despite the fact you have never heard it, and despite the fact that a professional reviewer seems to like it just fine. In other words, what you are sharing is biased ignorance....Got it....
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 03/03/15
a quote is a literal representation of what is said or written.
"the Thetas' reproduction of it was the best I've heard in my listening room."
That is not a quote. It is your extrapolation of Greenhill listing five (not all) factors with the additional proviso stated at the end: "...I've heard in years"
Therefore, he has heard better before.
You've totally lost objectivity and are far too emotional about this topic. We get the fact you love them and eagerly await the next time you break out the pom-poms for the switching team. :)
"This is one of my favorite movements in the classical repertoire, and the Thetas' reproduction of it was the best I've heard in my listening room."
try it! you know you want to!
At least you're learning.
As I've said before, I wouldn't purchase any component based upon a single movement of one piece of music.
If that's your buying criteria, then so be it. You have to understand that reviewers must balance their praise and it is not at all difficult to figure out when something is truly the best they have ever heard in any number of years with any movement of any piece of music.
Witness JA's appraisal of the Ayre KX-R Twenty preamp found here .
" All of the first-order sonic attributes - frequency balance, linearity, lack of coloration, etc. are beyond reproach, which means one needs to focus on such higher-order qualities as the presentation of the soundstage and the accuracy of the imaging, neither of which can be measured . But with Ayre's KX-R Twenty, I had no difficulty reaching a conclusion: While $27,500 is a high price to pay for a line preamplifier, the KX-R Twenty is as good as a preamplifier can get. "
" the KX-R Twenty is as good as a preamplifier can get."
His message is quite clear. :)
I simply posted someone's comment and notice of a very positive review. You fell all over yourself trying to pee on it...
Poo-poo it all you want. The review speaks for itself.
try it! you know you want to!
"I simply posted someone's comment and notice of a very positive review"
No, you posted a very provocative title "Class Warfare over..." and pretend not to have an agenda in this argument.
No, you posted a very provocative title "Class Warfare over...
completely misunderstood the reviewer's conclusion found in the final paragraph of the review.
To any unbiased observer, it was just a link to something that some people might find interesting. You chose to jump in with your usual class d criticisms and biases. What really is curious is why you feel the need to jump into every class d thread and spout your usual dogma. We get it, you are into tubes. Go listen to them and quit peeing in the class d pool.
try it! you know you want to!
You are the one who started a thread with a controversial title and you have the nerve to talk about peeing into pools, oh champion of the holy Class D!!! You are a joke...
nt
try it! you know you want to!
knowing it would give you the attention you apparently crave so badly. Mommy didn't give you enough love as a child???
I like posting on this forum...its a hobby of sorts, it doesn't eat too much of my time so why not? You seem to also have time on your hands to joust with your many detractors.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
..
nt
try it! you know you want to!
you've got a really steep road to climb when your arguments consist of lies, mangling the English language and resorting to statements like that!
BTW, how's your stock in switching amp companies doing? I gather not so well.
Best of luck with your mission to convert folks. :)
"BTW, how's your stock in switching amp companies doing? I gather not so well."
lol One would have to guess nearly infinitely better than your tube amp stocks. For some reason those flea power class A biased tube amp topologies never seem to catch on for the industrial power conversion applications like VFD's, inverters, etc. where the real money is exchanged.
For some reason those flea power class A biased tube amp topologies never seem to catch on for the industrial power conversion applications
Who said anything about flea powered tubes? My VTL mono amps are AB designs with 300W output at 8 ohms.
Now for industrial purposes, how about the 1.25 megawatt Klystron tube powered radar transmitter in Tampa? Nah, even that's a lightweight.
How about the fifty megawatt klystron powered linear colliders used by the Department of Energy's SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory?
That's where the real money is exchanged.
Hope they were'nt getting those from Putin .... ROFL
They're Amurican made . :)
nt
try it! you know you want to!
nt.
Inexpensive, compact and cool running. They are perfectly satisfactory for the mass market audience performing duty in televisions, sound bars, bluetooth boom boxes, etc. Exceptional sound quality is simply not a factor.
As for cell phones, the audio output is handled via op amps, not switching amplifiers.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Poor guy...
Would you find them annoying? Would you begin to wonder why they didn't have anything more meaningful to do with their time? Would you pity their need for attention, their need to feel superior? Would you tire of their inability to accept the insignificance of their little opinions?
Look in the mirror. You are this person: the class d stalker...It's not attractive.
Take a moment to ponder why you just can't seem to stop popping off and spewing your annoying anti-class d gibberish every time the topic arises.
try it! you know you want to!
just ones that try to claim something...usually yours.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
and chimes into every Class D thread...that would be you. So it is not I who stalks the Class D, I just try to prevent your misinformation from reaching too many eyes.
You see, I mostly ignore Class D posts and I never start threads about it...that says all there is to say. I could start a provacative thread about Class D sucking if you would like to stalk it and tell me how ignorant I am of the latest and greatest from the wizard of Class D the Great Bruno!
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Try listening to some music next time the impulse strikes....
try it! you know you want to!
I'm pretty certain that the NAD comes with a power supply included.
So that's $9k for a pretty aluminium box.
I was told by a friend whose also a long time audiophile dealer that Theta stuff always reviews well.
Clearly he's not wrong about that. That's a pretty good review.
But at and around $12k there are a ton of fantastic amps from $8k to $20k, and given that it is room/speaker/amp as a system ... there is no way to hold a reviewer accountable for "best" with the weasel word "...that I've heard."
============================
As audiophiles, we take what's obsolete, make it beautiful, and keep it forever.
Hey! I have a blog now: http://mancave-stereo.blogspot.com or "like" us at https://www.facebook.com/mancave.stereo
who prefers the sound of Bryston gear.
...although I have not yet read the review, the snippets above do not mention realistic instrumental/vocal reproduction or harmonic palette which are pretty high on my list.
So with those amps you are paying $1000 for the actual amp + PSU and $11 000 for the fancy casing.
A bargain if I've ever seen one.
That's in British Pound Sterling. So it's more like $17,000 US dollars for the shiny case. Come on - get your facts straight!
charles
I used the dollar price as mentioned in the linked article.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Only because I have the money does not in any way mean that I'm happy to pay it out for purely visual bling that does not add anything to the listening experience.You can get the same nCore amp inside a NAD M22 for a quarter of the amp above.
Edits: 03/03/15 03/03/15 03/03/15 03/03/15
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Better git selling my gear and buy the penultimate force in audio today. How could I of been so wrong?
It's hype, with a touch of synergy, yet again coming to the fore.
That's Par for the Course around here.
So Many Experts.
"Better git selling my gear and buy the penultimate force in audio today. "
Why settle for the penultimate? Head straight for the ultimate!
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: