|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
76.24.78.116
Meanwhile, I'll stick with well engineered tube gear, thank you very much. Every so often, I'll try listening to a Class D amp to see if they have gotten better. They have, BUT, they still do not present music as well as properly engineered tube amps. The best sounding Class D I've heard so far is the Yamaha MX-D1, followed by the N-Core. While they did have some positive aspects, compared to tubes, they lack depth to the sound, and the midrange and treble just do not sound right compared to tubes.I found this link which presents an argument as to why Class D falls short. I also realize there are some of you who are charter members of KGB/FSB wing of the class D fan club, and don't take kindly to any other viewpoint. However, have not seen any valid counter arguments against the link yet.
Here is another link which goes into some reasons why tubes are still highly valued for audio. Check out the side bar about noise with the 6AU6 vs. JFET.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Edits: 01/01/15Follow Ups:
I have a new NuPrime IDA-16 that sounds awfully nice compared to about anything I've heard. I'm not a proponent of any particular class, just as long as it produces a detailed, fatigue free sound.
This might be of some interest.
Very nice. I think the future belongs to Class-D amplifiers, mostly due to their compact size while maintaining good performance.
Now, if they had TWO analog inputs, enough for a phono stage plus an analog tuner, that would be great.
Five digital inputs?? Computer, CD player, Blue-Ray Player, TV.
I'll trade a digital input for an additional analog input ;-)
Larry Greenhill apparently doesnt have an issue with Class-D ....http://www.stereophile.com/content/genesis-ces
"Gary played my copy of Patricia Barber's "Too Rich for My Blood," which proved the system's resolving capabilities for micro detail, subtle timbral qualities, and open highs. This system proved to be one of the better-sounding rooms I visited at CES 2015."
Regards
Edits: 01/17/15
I like tube amps too, but one's preferred amp has a lot to do with application. Have you often seen a 5 wpc tube amp used for powering PA speakers at a concert? How about driving insensitive speakers in a big living room? Hard rock at big house party?My main system is integrated into my computer system and is on 24/7. Not too practical for tube life! But if anyone wants to send me a lifetime supply of tubes for free I'd gladly switch back to tubes.
P.S. Some of you guys should agree to disagree without getting all hot and bothered like old ladies. Any newbie coming here who might be checking out the high end will probably just run away and just use his 70s Pioneer receiver.
Edits: 01/11/15
Over 200 replies, sorry I did not go thro all of them,
But here is a gist ......
My experience with class D .... Still a working progress
Also there is some truth to Freo-1s statement. This can only be found in the audio wisdom of yesteryears! Something's have been lost over the generation.
Over a decade of compulsive searching has led to some unsettling truth,
There is more to SET amps and high eff speakers than most people think .....
Will try to explain it as such
"There are tomatoes in the grocery section, that look like tomatoes, some bigger some even redder, however none (actually some don't taste like anything) come close to the smell, taste, the tart of that shriveled small inconspicuous REAL organic tomato, which might not even be available in a country like US (eg but in Italy), some would never know what one is referring to, as we say tomato, just sounds same, and all discussion are made on uneven grounds, but flavour is entirely different, only few have experience"
BTW I don't use SET Amps at present.
It is no accident that the "old" technologies have become more and more popular over the last 2 decades...it's the sound!
I came from the high powered SS camp, dallied with the Class D camp, lived for a while in the push/pull tube camp but found realistic sound somewhere else. That fresh rich taste you have been missing...you will likely find it there.
You probably think tube amps are the cat's meow because some of your friends and reviewers convinced you that warmth and tonality can only come from a tube, rather than the recording.
On the other hand, there are those who think that any such characteristics coming from an electronic component is nothing short of a coloration. A coloration that masks distortions (and the music) you've yet to resolve, the coloration of a tube helps make your system's presentation a bit more palatible and less fatiguing, hence it's declared to be more musical. Yet, sometimes a tube is little more than a Band-Aid. I'm not poo-poo'ing all tube amps.
Like with any of the other classes, there are good and not-so-good Class D amps.
A well-engineered Class D amp usually has the potential of being quicker/responsive and far more revealing. However, since a revealing component is indiscriminate about what it reveals, e.g. more music and more distortion, those who've not addressed distortions elsewhere in the system generally find even a well-designed Class D amp as harsh, cold, fatiguing, etc. And rather than look inward, the owner blames the Class D amp and then dismisses the entire technology as inferior and no match for a tube amp that often times masks the distortions (and the music). Simply because it's less fatiguing / more musical.
Most people I know who do not like Class D amps have done nothing to properly treat the noisy AC coming in from the street via superior line conditioning.
Moreover, it stands to reason that since Class D amps generally weigh far less than their Class A, A/B counterparts, (a feather is far more susceptible to vibrations than a block of concrete), Class D amps generally require far greater attention from a vibration controlling perspective.
The insightful types realize that certain more revealing products need to be nurtured to enhance the new level of detail and creating a more musical presentaiton whereas the naive often times throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I'd bet dollars-to-donuts that if a tube amp lover were to employ superior line conditioning and a superior racking system, they'd be singing a different song about at least some Class D amps.
Over the past 14 years I've had Class A/B amps and Class D amps. At present my $2400 W4S SX-1000 amps make my previous $8k BMC C1 amp sound like a $50 BestBuy receiver. But only after going to the utmost extremes in both proper AC mgmt and especially proper vibration mgmt. If I had not gone to such extremes with my latest Class D amps, I would have opted for the BMC C1.
Like any performance-oriented industry, more detail (improved performance) must be carefully nurtured.
Your assumptions are not correct. Who's to say that you think class D is the bee's knees because of friends and reviewers gushing over such things as efficiency and promises of high output power in a small shoe box, while ignoring such aspects as a lack of depth with the sound-stage, HF that sounds slightly off, and issues with low level detail playback (especially on classical music), just to name a few.
I first started listening to tube amps back in the 80's, when I picked up a old set of Dyna MK IV's, and restored them. Although it wasn't SOTA high end, after a restoration, it provided a sonic presentation that I found lacking with SS that I been exposed to at the time. For a variety of reasons, custom made/DIY tube amps can achieve some amazing sonic performance.
I would argue a properly made amp already has sufficient input power filtering so as not to be a issue. Check out Pass Labs website, and they point out that their designs take this into account. Same with well designed tube amps. For example, the Thomas Meyer 6AH4 preamp has such a excellent power supply, using it with a well designed tube power amp provides astonishingly low noise floors, which is necessary for proper low level retrieval and play playback of classical music.
Check out the link at the beginning of the thread for advantages of tubes. They are more linear than sand deceives, they can swing very large voltage rails, and the circuitry is simple, needing less gain stages.
As Nelson Pass says, "Class D amps are switching amps with tons of feedback. It's amazing they work as well as they do"
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Plenty of people claim otherwise regarding class d and your claimed "deficiencies". Sorry, your experiences are not universal nor are they fact for others.
Your appeal to an authority (an obviously biased one at that) is another lame attempt at justifying your claim that class d is somehow inferior. Clearly it works and works well- better in the opinion of many others than tubes or even the class a amps of Pass.
But thank you for sharing.
try it! you know you want to!
Freo,You left out the miles of copper used in the output transformers between toobs and Speaker wire , there's more, i could go on, but we would just be spinning the science to fit each Bias. In actuality there are no winners, no silver bullet, no checkered flag, no WDC, just one's euphoria vs another s anathema, hence why i prefer to not jump on any one topology, each can deliver, if balanced and setup correctly.
Whats not debatable is 89db speakers clipping on 30 watt amplfiers, thats why the great one wont list db level when comparing or use level matching, even the uninitiated would see thru that smoke .. :)
Regards
Edits: 01/07/15 01/07/15
Gross generalizations seem to be an ingrained part of the dogma amongst the "mine is better than yours" crowd of audio absolutists.
try it! you know you want to!
What I find funny is when some guys start dropping names and products from 30 or 40 years ago as though time somehow justifies them as some type of an authority.
To me it says they think hacks and bush leaguer only exist on other planets.
I'm not say that necessarily about Freo, but there's certainly plenty out there. And I mean "out there".
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Have not tried all line conditioners but the ones tried degrade the sound, so it seems there is nothing wrong with my AC mains supply.
Appreciate your honesty, Disbeliever.
I could say, I rest my case, but I won't. Even though I kinda' just did.
What you may not be aware of is:
1. That AC noise coming in from the street is a universal problem for everybody. It's the very nature of AC.
2. Finding proper or superior line conditioners implies that there are improper or inferior line conditioners to avoid.
3. There are MANY improper or inferior line conditioners that either do nothing (very few) or induce their own sonic harm, which are many. Some AC filters / line conditioners simply attempt to suppress offending frequencies. In so doing, they also suppress the music in those frequencies.
4. Dedicated AC circuits/lines do nothing to condition or filter the noisy AC coming in from the street. But can minimalize some distortions induced inside the home, e.g. appliances, dimmers, etc.
5. Finding proper or superior line conditioners is a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack. My rule of thumb is, the more popular the name brand, the more likely I'm to steer clear of their product.
6. There are a handful of mfg'ers that make superior line conditioners. The ones I've been using for 15 years (different versions) are Foundation Research. But FR went defunct a few years ago.
7. Should you locate a superior line conditioner, the performace gains should about equal your most significant musical gains you've yet experienced. In other words, it should be undeniable.
8. I suggest avoiding active line conditioners for two reasons. 1) I've yet to hear one that "works". 2) Active line conditioners will draw AC current to themselves and thus potentially rob a high-powered amp of the juice needed for dynamic and/or complex music passages. (It doesn't take much juice to flatten dynamics if the amp is high-current drawing.)
9. Never double up or daisy-chain AC filters/line conditioners that employ different technologies as it's almost a guarantee the results will sound worse. Some clever component mfg'er who think they know about proper AC filtering or line conditioning will insert a $5 AC filter behind the component's IEC inlet. So the consumer purchases the component with the built-in $5 AC filter and then they could purchase a SOTA-level line conditioner and it will sound worse. But the unknowing consumer will blame the SOTA-level line conditioner rather than the crappy $5 AC filter. Perhaps some component mfg'ers bank on the fact that not many use line conditioning of any sort, so the $5 AC filter gives their product a tiny musical edge over the next component. Or perhaps the component mfg'er who designed in the $5 AC filter doesn't know the first thing about proper AC filtering / line conditioing and thinks he's doing the right thing (that's my guess).
Therefore, if you say you've tried several line conditioners and they sound worse, I can only say I'm not surprised and you just haven't tried a superior line conditioner.
In which case, I will plug here that I've had a spare Foundation Research line conditioner for sale here and on US Audio Mart but no bites yet. It is an LC 100. Their latest model and at 100 amp current capable you can supposed literally use it with the world's largest amps. Or you can connect it to an audio-grade power strip and connect all of your gear to it. Unless, your hearing is compromised, you most definitely should hear the wonderful differences with this beauty.
I build my systems on what I call a 'proper' foundation, i.e. proper AC mgmt and especially proper vibration mgmt. And though there are number of AC mgmt items to address, proper line conditioning is far and away THE most significantly and positively impacting part of a proper AC mgmt package.
In fact, I've yet to hear a playback system that I can tolerate listening to for more than 10 minutes if they do not employ proper line conditioning. It's just too fatiguing for me.
Anyway, that's the low-down on proper line conditioning.
Interesting but from experience I feel UK AC is superior to US with your many brown outs, US products sold in the UK Audio Research seem to be over fused, quite frankly like a Class D amplifier line conditioners are of no interest to me, my sound is as close as you can get to a live event only restricted by the size of my listening room, I have considerable experience in evaluating Live v Recorded sound .Happy New Year.
I was only speaking of U.S. AC. As far as I know the UK at 220v has less noisy AC.
As for your claim that your system is as close to live as you can get (except for the room), I'm sure you are right because you have limitations and therefore, can only address what you know or think you know or perhaps achieve some performance gains by happenstance.
But I guarantee you that somebody else can take your same system and make it soar far closer to the absolute sound than you thought possible.
UK AC is 230/240 volts and with a excellent 3 pin ground system . How on earth is someone else going to take my system and make it sound more Absolute ?
I could tell you but I suspect you would only disbelive me. :)
+100
A voice of reason.
NT
try it! you know you want to!
I've never heard a Class D amp. My impression to listening to really good (and expensive) SS amps with transistor output stages (JFET, MOSFET, etc) is that these have lower distortion and are more linear than even the best PP tube amps I have heard. However, I mainly listen to SET amps which have high second-order distortion. While these amps may not measure well, i find them far more engaging than the SS amps I mentioned.
To each his own.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
Whenever I thought of Class D, the name "Crown" popped into my head and that was it.
I had no idea that quality Class D amps existed, and since I'm a Maggie guy and they love power, the wheels are turning.
How can I raise enough dough, what excuse can I run past Mrs. Olddude that will work?
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...
You can always fall back on a trick I played once.
It turned into 'A new sports car or a new Amplifier'.
Too much is never enough
I wanted an pre-black bumper MG Midget bad and could afford one that didn't need restored (which I don't want to do)and there are plenty of them around here, but it was "no MG till I get a new kitchen."
Still, there might be a way...
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...
With all due respect, NO SUCH THING as a Midget which doesn't need to be 'restored'. Unless maybe it is real small and says 'Revel Authentikit' somewhere on it.
They ALL have problems. Electrical? If LUCAS made Stereo, they'd be out of business. SAY, they ARE out of business! Mechanical? Not for me. Any car needing a tuneup and carb adjust if the weather changes more than 20% humidity and 25'f, is NOT on my plate.
I wouldn't mind either a 1st gen Miata or an original BMW 2002. Both are fun, drivable, and tend to STAY fixed. 3rd on list MIGHT be an original Datsun 510, a very good and improved version of the Cortina. Just TRY to find a 510 which hasn't been modded, abused, raced, lowered or whatever, though.
Too much is never enough
I figured anything with Union Jack on it would be an easier sell.
No problem with tune-ups, I learned how to work a timing light and dwell gauge years ago. Know how to work on carbs, too.
Rust is the bastard. I live in the northeast.
Datsun 510? Sweet but they rusted away so fast in these parts they were gone in the wink of an eye. Same with the BMW.
I did build one of those Revell Midget kits; it overheated sitting on the shelf.
I do love the 1st gen Miata...nah, spend the dough on switching amps...
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...
TR6 .......
I have a Lotus...
The TR6 IS my fave British car of all time but you'd typically pay close to $20K for a good one. Don't think I'd have to pay more than about $7,500 for the best MGB in my area.
Of course the TR has a 6-cylinder engine and the MG only four...the TR has IRS, the B has a live axle...but the other factors like reliability, corrosion, build quality, they're pretty equal, right?
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...
Edits: 01/09/15
The XLS series from Crown are cheap, powerful, and according to many on audiocircles.com, sounds good enough to be replacing Job amps and several others at many multiples of the price....Check them out...for $300 and liberal return privileges, you have little to lose...
try it! you know you want to!
Learned a lot, too, about Class D amps. For example, Bang & Olufsen's involvement. I'm a B&O fan.
I'll check out Crown over at the Planar Asylum later tonight.
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...
B&O designed ICE modules, I don't think they had much to do with the others.
Jack
There is NO ONE 'ICE MODULE'.
They make several 'series' of them, each of which will cover either a market segment of perhaps a range of powers.
ASP modules come in 3 power ratings. ALL have on board switching PS and outputs to run another module from another series with NO power supply.
All 'd' modules are time-limited at full power.
Wander around at the B&O site, link provided. You'll see what these guys are up to.
Too much is never enough
Since i own several different ones.
Jack
The icepower modules were designed at B&O by Patrik Bostrom. He left as I understand it and is behind the Anaview designs with are used by D-Sonic, Marten ($45K), and likely others.
try it! you know you want to!
If my current power amp snuffs it, I might just try one of the Crown XLS amps.
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...
Cheap and most places have a liberal return policy....why not?
Best of luck...
try it! you know you want to!
Save the planet, don't cha know.
When that happens I don't think U.S. manufacturers will be able to build gear solely for the U.S. market.
I've seen the future and it's not class AB.
My Rogue Atlas will outlive me, so I'm not worrying too much.
The real question is... what happens to tube manufacturers when no one is making new tube amps????
"We are all in God's hands... and God is a malign thug."
-Mark Twain
Those with solar, wind, etc. power sources should be exempt from any such rules.
I have been hoarding EL509s for the last decade- since I bought my Transcendent OTL.
Probably have two dozen+ "NOS" tubes in storage and the amp only uses 8. Since the amp still has the original power tubes (had to change out one supply tube but those are very common) I hope to be good for another decade at least.
After that- if i am still around which is questionable- I am hoping that my Musical Fidelity A1 2008 Class A in storage will suffice.
kenzo
Depends on how many hrs yearly , power toobs will rarely go 2 yrs without diminished sonics, sonics will start to deteriorate way before toob is classified defective. Easy to confirm after switching in new ...
I used to change mine every 1-1.5 yrs to maintain sonics , but thats when toobs could stull be bought at the shack or at lafayette ... :)
in the summer, not much use. in the winters, avg. probably 20 hrs/week.
The engineer who designed the amp - Bruce Rozenblit - always asserted the T8 was overdesigned and the voltage to the tubes is relatively low allowing longer tube life.
When I compare the T8s sound today at 10 yrs old- against a Quad 909, Musical Fidelity A1 2008, Qinpu A6000 MkII, I can hear differences between all of them of course (speakers are DeCapo I, Cambridge Audio S30, Pioneer SP-BS22-LR Andrew Jones). The T8 consistently wins the "holy hell, it sounds like they are in the damn room!" test using with the DeCapos and S30s - even my tin eared wife notices the difference. But it does sound a little laid back with the pioneers (they sound best with the Quad...)
kenzo
Yeah those OTLs do that "In the room presence" like nothing else I have heard. I had a pair of Silvaweld OTL monos and a pair of Transcendent sound Beast monos that I built for someone. The Transcendent sounds didn't like my electrostats too much as they oscillated into the highly reactive load.
The real question is... what happens to tube manufacturers when no one is making new tube amps????
Tube DIYers will survive in the audiophile underground while eluding the EU and US based Greenies trying to save to planet.
I'm going to stock up on KT120 and some small signal tubes to get me through another 15 years or so. Beyond that, I'll probably be nearly deaf so good or bad, Class D might be in my future by then.
Have you been hoarding 100-watt incandescent light bulbs because there are none to be found on the shelves at Lowes or Home Depot. I have several dozen 100-watt bulbs but I'm not sure what for. I installed LED lighting throughout most of our house as LEDs have improved significantly in just the past couple years.
I'm hoping for the same accelerated improvement in Class D amps, but in the mean time I'll be well stocked with vacuum tubes. ;-)
I think the best bang for the buck option for tubes is DIY. There is still a ton of tubes out there. Most are TV tubes, but with a little thought, TV tubes can make excellent audio tubes. The Thomas Meyer 6AH4 is based on TV tubes, and a better preamp I don't think can be had for any reasonable amount.
I'm currently working on getting a pair of mono amps made using 6BL7 as the input/phase splitter, and 6883B output tubes. Should get between 90 to 100 watts a channel out of them. The tubes can be had for reasonable prices, and and are still available.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Edits: 01/02/15
The only "counter argument" to any of this is how something sounds.
Everybody has a sales line. For example, Audience claims to produce cables with "low eddy current energy."
Audience markets this aspect because, nobody else does, and because, "Audience believes this to be as important as any other design parameter for optimal performance of audio signal cables."
The excerpt you linked from the Nuforce website is based on their premise that their amplifiers are not class D;
"NuForce is not a Switching Digital Amplifier."
"Instead of a saw tooth digital signal, NuForce has developed and patented a naturally occurring analog modulating signal that flows with the music and adds no noise or jitter into the system. Rather than using imperfect off-the-shelf solutions, NuForce has developed and patented a series of breakthrough advances that have unlocked the huge potential of switching amplifiers, without the problems that pure digital switching amplifiers have been unable to solve; in other words, the best of both worlds."
Is this simply their sales line? Do they back this up with design information or is it something they claim so purchasers of their products can believe they are buying better technology. I can't answer that but I do know that every designer does what they think will create the best product for their price point and market demographics, and their sales force puts their best spin on it.
Many of the main detractors of Class D cite the use of copious amounts of negative feedback. I have linked a discussion about that by Bruno Putzeys, designer of the Ncore modules. Bruno has engineering training, extensive design experience, and has written more than a few papers about his design ideas. Does this make his approach "best," not necessarily, but it does imply perhaps a valid approach. A little more about Bruno can be found at the link below, and through a Google search.
http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php/features-menu/general-interest-interviews-menu/455-searching-for-the-extreme-bruno-putzeys-of-mola-mola-hypex-and-grimm-audio-part-one
Still, all that leads back to how something sounds and how well it matches the end user's goals. I currently own a pair of NC1200 monoblocks and also a very good Class A/B amplifier. I have compared these over a 10-day trial period with the NC1200s and, now that I own a pair, I will continue to compare them for a longer period of time. Before the Class A/B amplifier, I owned a pair of high quality Class A monoblocks that I also compared directly with the NC1200s over a 10-day trial. All three of these amplifiers have output of 300-350 wpc, with the Class A amplifiers doubling at lower impedances and the other two nearly so. Therefore, power has been similar and is not a factor in the comparisons.
So far, each of the three amplifiers have shown their strengths but the Class A monos were ruled out for ergonomic reasons. They all sounded great in my system/room, but different. I am sure good tubed amplifiers also sound great but different from the three I have owned. Class D may or may not get better but, based on comparisons with the amps I have owned, the NC1200 Class D amplifiers can compete with the others. Whether someone would purchase them will come down to the type of sound the buyer enjoys, partnering equipment and ergonomic needs.
what you quoted is interesting and disturbing. It's unfortunate these amps a called class D which for many implies digital and they're not; they're analog. And I thought the analog coding done is into square waves of various lengths, not triangular waves which are I thought are only used to encode the square waves.
THey are not strictly analog either as they work by rapidly switching transistors on and off for different periods of time and not in a linear analog fashion. THat said most are also not true digital (although Sharp, Yamaha and TACT at least made ones that were true PCM to PWM converters).
Morricab, what's your opinion of NAD’s PCM to PWM efforts, such as NAD M2?
Thanks,
Serge
NT
try it! you know you want to!
The TACT Millennium and Sharp SX200 both had PCM direct input...so the input was quantized if you chose that input. A friend of mine had the Sharp for a while and it was almost good...you would probably call it SOTA.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
I do find the engineering design interesting and will dig deeper into that with time.
However, that what matters most to me is how they sound. What first put them on my radar was Srajan Ebaen's 6moons review, and what convinced me to buy a pair were two different in-home trials (separated by 8 months) where I compared them head-to-head against two different and very good sounding amps I owned at those times.
I agree. If it works that's all that matters. I'm holding back my opinion because I've heard them sound good in short uncontrolled conditions but have only had one in my own system(that's been highly reviewed many times) that disappointed me. But I know that's way too small a sample to make any decision upon.
But it bothers me when almost everyone criticizes something without any understanding of how and what it is. And to call class D digital because of the letter D makes little sense to me. A square wave is not a digital coding especially when the length of the square wave varies in an analog manner.
Not all of them. The Yamaha MXD1 uses a flash converter followed by a digital pulse width modulator. IMHO, this has been the best sounding Class D amp I have heard to date, and gives most conventional amps a run for it's money. It's a real shame Yamaha didn't pursue this further.I have owned a lot of Class D amps over the years, going back to Sony S-Master Pro series that employed linear power supplies. The Sony approach used PLM (Pulse Length Modulation) vice PWN. They sounded pretty good for their day, especially if you fed them a fire wire input.
Some of the ICE modules I have owned sounded pretty mediocre(IMHO). There have not been many Class D amps that I thought were superior, but the Yamaha came pretty close.
Even though I haven't yet found one that overcomes the issues that I have with them (HF and 2D rendering are the biggest), I'll continue to audition them, in the hope that one of them will eventually be pleasing enough to keep long term as a reference. I do like the ability to provide a lot of power. The Yamaha delivers 500 WPC at 8 or 4 ohms, which does provide some very good performance.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Edits: 01/03/15
Keep what you like but don't assume you know what is right for others. I got rid of a high end VAC tubed amp after listening to a great sounding set of Channel Island Audio Mk11 Mono class D amps. You have not cured the world of any disease so quit telling me what I should be listening to. Have a great day.
Which VAC amp did you have? I had the VAC 30/30 and would never change it for Channel Island amps. I DID change it for a good SET amp though. I am just curious if you had one of their big 300B amps or one of the other ones.
PA100/100. Had it for 11 plus years. Brought the CI amps home for comparison and it was a done deal.
Haven't heard that one.
No one is assuming what is best for others. No one is telling anyone what to listen to. Inferring that is simply not correct. Rest assured each can like or dislike whatever they prefer.What was posted was providing personal observations with amps based on years being involved in this crazy hobby. Some links were provided to add clarity to the personal observations.
Some addition links were then posted by others in this thread supporting why they like Class D. The back and forth discussion is the intent of the thread. Its not a personal attack to challenge and debate merits of audio gear design and performance.
Lastly, I have not been a big fan of of a lot of recently made commercial tube gear. Between using printed circuit boards, surface mounting tube sockets, and current production tubes, sonic performance can wind up compromised. Going DIY allows use of high quality NOS tubes, point to point wiring, and high quality parts.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Edits: 01/04/15
...very title of your original post that, perhaps, set some folks off on the wrong/defensive foot right off the bat. To refer to something and then go on to say "...you can keep it/them" comes across real negative. It does come across as a bit of an attack. Your posts themselves were much more balanced. Is it too late to change post title?
You can give up trying a rational argument against the Class D "Pusher" his agenda is clear...hound anyone who hasn't become a Class D disciple because now they are so technically superior...pity the sonics are not superior...who wouldn't want their cake and eat it too! Sadly, there is no free lunch and Class D sonics are the price to pay for efficiency.
Never was a troll...never will be...my record is clear.
NT
try it! you know you want to!
You posted a link which you describe as "presents an argument as to why Class D falls short"- your statement. No argument will "prove" or "clarify" anything when it comes to personal tastes. So it is both spurious to include it originally and disingenuous to now claim it was simply done to "add clarity" to your "personal observations".Are you saying you base your subjective preferences on what is in the box? Do you think by providing "engineering" you are somehow validating your tastes or invalidating those of others?
Or are you trying to find a "rationale" to "explain" the basis for your subjective opinion?
Others posted links to show you there is more than one expert opinion out there in counterpoint to your bashing, not to "clarify their personal preferences" or support "why they like class d".There is no way to prove or support personal preferences. It is neither possible nor necessary.
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 01/04/15 01/04/15 01/04/15
"But it bothers me when almost everyone criticizes something without any understanding of how and what it is. "
Since when has ignorance stood in the way clinging to preconceptions, stereotypes and bias??? LOL....
try it! you know you want to!
NT
try it! you know you want to!
With all due respect to the OP, I too am of the camp that the more topologies that are out there the better for the consumer, and it is one of the reasons I find today to be the golden age of audio equipment, even if not the golden age of recorded music.
I really liked your post. It may just be common sense, but that doesn't make it easy to set forth in writing is such a clear and convincing manner. Well done.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Thanks for the kind words Josh.
I corrected a spelling error in my post above and forgot to reattach the link to the Putzeys feedback paper, I have attached it below.
Also interesting is that a pair of Bruno's Mola Mola Kaluga Ncore Amplifiers was just posted for sale by GTT Audio & Video, on Audiogon. These appear to be either used (gently) or maybe demo/show models since they are rated in 10/10 condition. These amps have got to have one of the longest launch periods on record, which the designer claims was related to having the unique casework properly manufactured. Some of the better designers out there seem to struggle with production issues. Maybe now we will see some print reviews of those amps.
Hi Mitch,
I read the paper. It's well written. Like anything else, I think some of it is spot on, but question other aspects of the feedback argument.
Nelson Pass also has a paper on feedback, which not surprisingly, takes a different point of view.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
NT
try it! you know you want to!
Thanks, Mitch. Will check this out.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
It's been decades since tubes were used in in pre or post production playback for reliability and stability. Some recording engineers use tube microphone preamplifiers in certain situations. Still, ones choice of playback equipment is incredibly subjective and likely the root of this hobby. Why even go there?
In my experience with switching amplifiers I've learned they can be the most diffuclt to integrate. Their inherent presentation can easily magnify issues of AC power, cabling, and RFI, to name a few. I find my nCores perfectly suited powering my Avalon Acoustics Monitors to provide the up front presentation and transparency needed to hear subtle microphone differences. This level of playback is not at all suited for casual listening.
The advancement in computer technologies has enabled the switching speeds needed for modern class D amplification not to mention all the digital source gear and media one may find acceptable.
In my opinion, class D is simply another welcome alternative with its own set of limitations just like tubes and linear solid state. If you wanna gripe about something how about not getting the studio level of fidelity from the media we're paying for.
I just had a discussion with a fellow music lover today. He mentioned how he watched a show where they were talking about LPs making a comeback (rolls eyes) and how the black keys (who I love) are all about vinyl and recording quality. I know a bit about their history and feel its true for the most part.
I personally always have a giggle when I hear about how these younger music lovers (not just the hipsters ;) love vinyl and think it adds something to their listening experience. To be clear Im mostly referencing buying new vinyl of new music overall. Its just comical to me. IMO and experience its more a matter of the master source and mix down along the way. I personally prefer sources of a digital nature for the convenience and accessibility no matter what system I may be using. I ditched the analog source only long ago. Digital can sound fine IMO. Its all about how something was mastered and mixed. Same was true 70+ years ago when modern hifi emerged. Theres bad sounding vinyl too not just for its physical shape. I still like vinyl but really only search for music I dont own at the used shops because I wont likely find it elsewhere and its cheap.
Which brings me to my only real gripe with SOME high end D amps. And to be fair the same complaint is present in all high end. But when a 300+ watt class D amp goes for $3k+ I have to sigh. Many of us laugh at the mega buck gear out there but at least a massive linear AB amp has some meat to account for its cost. Not to say the companies building these products dont have R&D cost and whatever else but damn... Im a computer fellow by trade so know a small amount about the PCB and switching PS tech found in these units. Now on the positive side theres a plethora of great DIY and Chinese D amps out there for cheap which offer great bang for the buck and weight / size.
Which goes to their next point, their pluses. The idea that D amps have no place in mainstream or hifi is just nuts. Even as a tube and linear AB lover, Ive heard some great D amps out there. And when one factors in their size, weight and general availability its a no brainer they will be growing in popularity. They simply are no longer that bad overall. I personally dont want one but I know Im in the minority with the general public and a growing portion of music lovers out there. And Ive no reason to think they wont continue to get better. With so many major makers out there focusing on them. And pro audio makers using them and continuing their engineering and refinement efforts, why would it not go any other way??? Crown , QSC , Power soft , Lab Grup ... never mind the many audiophile ones in addition.
Again leads me to my next and last point. I personally feel these are great times for those wanting high power on the cheap in this hobby. Im just a working class shlep in this world. I like great band for the buck in my audio hobby. I somewhat recently made the switch from mainly tubes to high power vintage SS. Ive also come to the belief if you still like it loud at times and use direct radiators overall a high power 100+ to 300 watt amp is really nice and adds something. Im guessing vintage SS and pro audio with be the next thing for thrifty audio nerds to get into. Kinda the vintage tube gear of our time. Maybe who knows... I just look at what I grabbed when my good friend from HS came to visit. Drove from several states away and was kind enough to bring this old crest I found on high local Clist for $225. Pretty amazing power for the money. Built like a tank and sounds as good as anything in its power range. Yea it will need new caps on the driver and regulator board but who cares!?! Not that hard. Uses the same Sanken output transistors as many of the audiophile amps of its era too. You just have to be a nutcase like myself and others to want this 70 lb monster in your home VS its modern 8 lb class D counter part :-)
Sorry for the long rant. But found your response spot on and brings out the bigger issue. Lots of good new music out there thats being put out thats offensive to the ears of those that know. I look at the mumford and sons debut release that made mainstream success and is good music to boot. Terrible master job. What a shame. No wonder young and new folks to the hobby to see the need to bother.
Great amps out there of all kinds. Now we just need great sounding music to push through em!
Crest Audio seems to have been taken over by Peavey. Your 5001 schematics can be found here,
http://www.peaveycommercialaudio.com/schematics.cfmI resurrected an early Cerwin-Vega A-1800 with all new wire, caps, and resistors. It did sound better but not even close to a modern Rowland ore even my Ayre V-1x. I think there's a DNA thing in the design and technology.
To clarify my comments: I use my studio for analog recording to 1/2" or 1/4" tape. The Hypex DIY kit nCore 400s are simply driving the playback monitors. I do not do any post production or mastering.
I have had in house a number of class D amplifiers of varying design and modest cost. Like you I've become skeptical of the recent unexplained cost increase in higher powered audiophile class D amplification compared to ultra high powered Pro Audio class D offerings.
At my age I haven't been able to overcome the upper body tension that comes from listening to even the highest quality digital comfortable for any length of time. Even worse was the early advent of solid state amplification. As a working Musician the convenience and ruggedness of solid state made the work easier and much more reliable. While the shrill edginess of early solid state wasn't a big issue in public address it didn't mature for me until the mid eighties and even then not in my home stereo (now I'm getting into subjective personal taste).
I'm guessing what you're hearing as poor mastering is the result of the massive decline in the big label recording studio system. Its actually a combination of modern recording equipment and the techniques used by inexperienced recording engineering, far too many digital conversions, and the ultimate degradation that occurs in post production and quality in the manufacturing of the media. Digital recording on vinyl is still digital.Unfortunately, to the younger technicians and listeners it all sounds normal because now, it is.
Edits: 01/03/15
One can dream right
Neve 5432
When I looked up your mixer I noticed it uses inductor based mid eq. I recently picked up some old Klark Teknik DN27 / DN27A eqs to use in my stereo rigs for cheap. Great EQs for home use now that they are affordable. These old school inductor based EQs are really nice for the $.
And P&G sliders in that bad boy too seems.
No wonder Neve fetch big $
Nice stuff
I recently picked up a couple early 80s Teac mixers to bum around with. Nice warm sound and wonderful build quality for under $200.
A friend of mines teen son is getting into making and recording music of his own. If he were to get into using an analog mixer (not sure) I found a Studiomaster Pro Line 8-4-8R for $150 local. Great unit for the $ IMO. But so many of the young folk only get into digital gear. Which I understand. Easy to come by, cheap and really all the know.
But yes these are great times for the larger enthusiasts out there. A company like hairball audio make wonderful DIY gear for such people. And I dont know if youve seen the new Warm Audio folks. They offer turnkey units of the sort for cheaper than Ive ever seen before. Lots of folks seem to like em. Clearly not as heavy duty as hairball but pre built for the $ hard to complain.
But on the notion of amps as was being discussed. I see so many great options new and used out there. So many people with such wide ranges or taste, money and size conditions. Theres really never been a better range of options out there. And folks can choose what they feel they like and go from there. Class D has such a neat combo of size, weight and power output. No wonder those still using passive speakers and rack amps flocked to them once they really started sounding good and were reliable. Also for the tube group, my gosh has there never been a great selection of DIY parts a plenty. A person could buy some wonderful custom wound iron from any number of makers. Then pair the build with a super heavy duty metal chassis from china and have a mega buck audiophile looking (and likely better sounding) tube amp for less than ever before possible.
So many cool options, so little time and $ ;)
If you feel like posting a pic of your recording rig or stereo Id like to see it. Youve got good taste and perspective.
On the notion of the power amp. Yes Im aware of the Peavey take over from years ago. This is an example of the Pre-Peavey era. Thanks for the link BTW, I knew of it and have it but it was kind of you. And a fine example IMO. These power amps have no compression as protection. Also they are from the "almost" cost no object in their design. Real massive and rugged. And they do have protection circuits throughout. One thing youll notice is the modular design of it too. Real handy for doing work. Also the handful of op-amps are in sockets. So improving the sound if one feels needed isnt as great a chore. IMO as long as a power amp was well engineered in its day it can still sound pretty darn good today. And this one is from the mid 80s abouts and SS was getting the bulk of the early limitations worked out. The specs of these early crests dont lie, they really were well engineered. Are they the last word in SS amps. Of course not. It wouldnt surprise me in the least that an Ayre or Cello or Boulder sound better. They damn well better for $3-10K+++ more!!!
Will I hear or care about it for me. Nope...
On the notion of recorded music and digital. I personally have no beef with digital. Heck how can one avoid other folks in our camp listening to old vinyl on a tube system. This is another science thats come a long way IMO. I personally think it can sound amazing. I really love the sound of my MHDT Havana DAC. Great value IMO. Also look no further than old 80s Telarc recordings as proof it could sound ok in its early days. Those recordings were AMAZING sound wise. But they took great care in their recording process and it showed. Heck they even list the recording and mastering monitor audio setup. Gear many folks to this day use. Digital can, with the right gear sound fine IMO. Can it sound bad, of course. But its no a given either way. Im fine with it and prefer it for its ease of use and convenience. I really got a kick when I first began ripping my massive CD collection. I found myself listening to MORE music than ever before and stuff Id forgotten about or prob wouldnt have got out as it wasnt worth the work before. IMO it can broaden ones horizons in many ways as a result of stuff like this.
And what I hear with most recordings. I dont know if you know of or like mumford and sons. But if you do and have their CD I speak of, just listen to the opening track. It starts out with just an acoustic guitar and them singing in harmony. It already starts to sound overly forward. Then as it crescendos, OMG it gets louder and louder and in your face. Then when it goes full bore into all instruments its an all out assault on the ears. Its the loudness war at its worst. And never mind how good it was micd or mixed. When things are that loud and over-driven all the delicacies are irrelevant. Its not subtle enough and balanced to tell. What a shame. Such a wonderful album that could have been. And this is just one of an endless sea of modern recordings that were butchered like it. The anti Christ of Telarc. Thats what Im talking about... :(
But yes I agree. Lots of good and bad and examples or amps , recordings , and mixes out there. Oh and cool to see your still using tape recording in the studio. Sure sounds great. Have you messed with computer recording at all? Im guessing yes. :)
Spot on M-db .......
Exactly! Why indeed?
"In my opinion, class D is simply another welcome alternative with its own set of limitations just like tubes and linear solid state. If you wanna gripe about something how about not getting the studio level of fidelity from the media we're paying for."
Truer words....
try it! you know you want to!
Yep,
I'm just glad my cd player don't get upset with my TT or RR, heck nothing wrong with some NPR jazz on the tuner somenights , really silly , those who bog themselves down with some silly golden rule of "one" ...
Many roads to Damascus ...
Regards..
Here Here! This is something I can agree with. :-)
Most of the recording I buy now are SACD classical offerings, and the speakers are ATC with the Super Linear drivers (used in a lot of studios).
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
As a long time tube, and especially SET listener, I've switched over to class D amps. At the moment, I've got D-sonic's M3-1500 amps in my main system. They use a Pascal module.
Here's a list of tube amps I currently own:
Jadis DA-60
Cary SLI-80 (triode version)
Rogers High fidelity 100
Rogue Cronus
Wavelength Cardinals
Moth 2A3
Almarro (the big SET, forget the model)
ASL Leyla
Custom 10Y SETs from george wright
WAVAC MD_811I also own:
Bel canto eVo 2i
W4S STI-500
W4S mAmps
Lavardin (forget the model)
Einstein Absolute TuneUsed to own:
Ayre V3
Portal Panache
Wright Sound Labs 3.5All of the above have their pluses and minuses, but I choose to listen to the D-Sonics. Are the the best on the planet? No, but I like them. They do most things very well. Plus, they are a perfect match for a passive pre. I haven't heard the Hypex NC 1200s, the price is prohibitive.
To each his own.
Jack
Edits: 01/02/15 01/02/15
...how do the W4S mAmps compare to both the D-Sonics and the older W4S STI-500? I own the mAmps and really like them and am curious. Thanks.
To be honest, I didn't care for the mAmps. They were too soft and warm for my taste. They also completely lacked the ability to drive my Ohms. The STI was leaner,too lean for some, with better drive and better treble and detail. The D-Sonics have treble as good or better than the STI, but have better bass and a little more warmth in the mids/upper bass without being soft. They also have a HUGE soundstage and better dynamics.
Jack
PS. The mAmps were better without the matching mPre.
Edits: 01/03/15 01/03/15
...concerning what you drive the mAmps w/. I have the original EE Minimax DAC w/ the volume pot. I changed the volume pot to a Goldpoint stepped attenuator and I couldn't believe the change in sound! That made as much or more of an improvement/change in the mAmps sound as did installing the Burson discrete opamps. For some reason those mAmps really need a resistive based quality passive driving them to sound their best. I'm surprised you didn't like the mPre w/ the mAmps. Most say they sound better w/ it. Oh well, to each his own.
Edits: 01/03/15
I think *most* class D amps sound best with passive pres. I had assumed the mPre would be a perfect match for the mAmps. I was wrong. In fact, a good portion of my complaints are due to the preamp. The mPre ruined the sound of My D-Sonics. In fairness to the mAmps, they sounded better with my Silverline Sonata 3s. Much easier load. Perhaps the power supply isn't up to the task.
Jack
Edits: 01/04/15
I remember when you commissioned the 10Y amps. Wasn't it for your Galants? I would have thought Jack G. would use a tube preamp instead of passive. May I ask what speakers are driven by the D-Sonics. I mean, ya know, 1200 wpc. At least one thing I think I would like with D-Sonics is, if I remember from a review, 5 watt standby. You leave them on, come home, and bamm; no warmup. you're going.
Peace, Brotherman.
Wow, that's going back. Your memory is good.
At least you know where I'm coming from.
I'm not using a whole lot of tubes these days.
I've got Ohm Walsh 5000s now. 89 dba at best, and thrive on power. The d-Sonics have 32 db gain, and enough power to drive anything, no preamp needed. The amps are sensitive to cables, vibration control etc. That dramatically improves things a bit.
Jack
Speaking of Ohms, I have Ohm 1000's in my small listening room ( 10' x 11' ). How these speakers continue to fly unnoticed under the radar baffles me a bit. I don't think I've ever owned a speaker voiced so well.....especially for my musical tastes. (jazz, blues and folk) Not to mention I've never had a speaker work nearly as well as the 1000 in this small room. Literally loads the room with an ambient presence that makes everything sound more real. Maybe even makes the room sound bigger. And no, this doesn't just occur after a third glass of wine.
Aren't they nice?
Many years ago, I had the 4s. I gave them to my stepdaughter when I upgraded. Many years and speakers later, I realized that I missed what Ohms did. I finally gave in and bought a pair. Nobody does ambience and space like them.
Jack
I rotate speakers thru my small listening room, but it doesn't take long before I'm missing what the Ohms do and they're back in place again. Never heard a speaker that could transform a small room like the Ohm. No surprise as he designs around room size. Mildly inefficient with a long break-in are the only drawbacks I've encountered. That said, no problem driving them with a 22 watt SET(845) in the above mentioned small room.
Yea, they can be driven with less, but the d-Sonics really put a solid grip on them. HUGE dynamics. They aren't hyper detailed as other speakers, but they do space and are soundstage champs.
Jack
Brotherman
I owned a Spectron Musician II and it is the one amp I regret selling. Was really impressive with my VSR 5HSE's I had for a time. I am a tube amp guy too but John Ulrick seemed to get it right - he just would not play Stereophile's game to "pay" to review - too bad really.
Is with my Panny SAXR57 driving a set of B&W DM 110 monitors in my bedroom. It sounds nice. Certainly not SOTA, but at the price I paid probably unbeatable for 2 channel SQ, power and features.
come by, have a cigar and relax with me. I have buffers (cathode followers) with tubes at the sources and then to a class D amp, sounds great.
if I wasn't paranoid of setting my house on fire I would use tubes for amplification, no question.
You have issues, no doubt of that.
You are considering the wrong tube amps if they are a fire hazard.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
if I leave the tube amp on lets say for 12 hours at a time unattended would that be a fire hazard? Just wondering. I read some horror stories.
I leave mine on and go out for hours at a time. Never an issue.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
No worries, Mate!Here is a pic of the 110 watt tube amps. They have high quality internal parts, and use NOS 12SN7/1625 tubes. The preamp is a Thomas Meyer 6AH4 design, and is a perfect match for the power amps.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Edits: 01/01/15
What on earth is a 5 watt amp good for unless you are listening to very efficient colored Horn speakers ? going back as far as the Voigt Corner Horn that started my Hi-Fi journey. When switching Class D amps equal the natural sound of Class AB amps I might buy one, but I doubt it. I find the JOB 225 Mos-Fet amp makes my speakers sound far more realistic than the Devialet D-Premier Class AD. plus the Job is great value unlike the Devialet especially if you only need a power amp.
Edits: 01/03/15 01/03/15
Several people on audiocircles.com have reported that they prefer the Crown XLS series of class d amps to their Job amps and have since sold their Job amps. These people claim to be lifelong audiophiles with decades in the hobby.
Just shows how preferences can differ as well as how amps can perform differently in different systems. Enjoy the Job!
try it! you know you want to!
I am enjoying my JOB 225 - Thank you all Class D I have audtioned so far for me is not enjoyable. I do not understand how anybody can use a cheap PA amp for listening to Hi-Fi certainly not Classical music for rubbish rock & pop its no problem.
Edits: 01/03/15
I note the JOB 225 sells on very quickly. I shall not be selling mine unless something better appears.
Well, I guess the moniker makes it clear....What you have is a preconception. All too common in this hobby. An open mind, curiosity, and the willingness to put preconceptions aside might expand your horizons and present heretofore unimagined options which could increase your enjoyment. Or you could just continue to live in a box, never knowing what might be out there, content in your own world...To each his own...
try it! you know you want to!
Who makes those amps of yours? Are they available in a stereo version, or integrated amp?I had a CW / AM transmitter back in the 1970's that was built by my uncle in the 1960's using a couple 807 power tubes.
I used that 807 based CW transmitter for a couple years contacting other HAM radio operators from all over the globe. 807s were abundant, cheap, reliable, and rugged so they were popular among DIY HAM radio guys who built their own equipment.
I think the 1625 is like the 807 but with 12v filament and different pinout.
Edits: 01/01/15
Yup, downright nostalgic...
With 6SN7's and 807's and maybe a 5U4 or 5Y3 rectalfire you could build all your ham transmitters AND audio things. The transformers WERE a little different though... But I usually used 6L6's for audio. Turning up the way-back machine crank do you remember the Harvey-Wells transmitter? It used 807's for both the final and plate modulator. My high school had one. Supposedly it even worked at 6 and 2 meters but I bet not very well. We didn't have any of the right overtone crystals to try it up there.
Rick
No, I don't recall the Harvey-Wells. Our H.S. had the E.F. Johnson Viking TX with VFO knob smack in the middle. The main RX was the Hammarlund HQ-110. We also had something called the Gonset Communicator for VHF but I never used it. These were already pretty old for the 1970's when I was in H.S. but they worked. We received a matching pair of green Heathkit TX and RX my senior year but they needed work.The 807 TX that I used at home had a 5U4 rectalfire but I have no idea what tubes were used for the AM modulator section. The coolest thing I remember about that TX was the heavy roller inductor that tuned just about anything, not that I was going very far with my fist full of 40M and 15M crystals. Novice class operators back then weren't allowed to use a VFO. ;-)
My main and preferred mode was CW even after graduating up from the Novice class license. I had a Vibroplex bug and later built an electronic keyer designed by WB4VVF. It was called the "WB4VVF Accukeyer" and was featured in a QST Magazine DIY article.
Vibroplex Deluxe Original. The company is still in business and they still make them.
Edits: 01/02/15 01/02/15
That is why I had the amps built. They make a great audio tube, they are all MIL-SPEC, and they do not cost much. They are a 12V 807, as you adroitly point out.The trick to get them to sound good is to use separate screen supplies and regulation. These amps are almost bullet proof.
Here is a pic of the insides of the 6AH4 preamp. It's incredibly quiet.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Edits: 01/01/15
really nice my friend. enjoy :)
While 'traditional' designs have been under refinement for a hundred years, Class D amplification is still a relatively new thing at least for audiophile amps.
While I have tried a number of Class D amps over the years.....
PS Audio HCA-2 stereo
Bel Canto M300 monos: (ICEpower based)
Nuforce Ref 9 v3 monos: (proprietary inhouse design)
Tripath Super "T" Amp stereo: (Tripath chip)
Wyred4Sound SX-500 monos: (ICEpower based)
Rogue Medusa Hybrid Class D stereo: (Hypex Ncore 400 based)
NC400 monos: (Hypex Ncore 400 based)
NC1200 monos*: (Hypex Ncore NC1200 based)
....I always find myself going back to quality Class AB solid-state or a vacuum tube amp. I'm presently running the Audio Research VSI-60 with KT120 power tubes or my Rogue Cronus Magnum also with KT120 power tubes. It may just be a matter of personal preference but I have yet to find a Class D amp that I can live with for more than a couple months.
* These NCore NC1200 based monos were at a friend's house driving a pair of large Magnepan 3.7 speakers and they were wonderful! However, those NC1200 based monos were up in the $10,000/pair range. I can achieve at least comparable sonics in a sub $2500 tube amp so why fork over $10K on Class D unless there's another compelling reason.... like efficiency, low heat output, size, weight, etc??
Again, this may just be a personal preference issue for me as I have tried various Class D amps over the years. I'll keep trying but I'll give it rest for a while and give them more time to catch up. Will Class D improve much or are they stuck where they are for now??
.
wyred4sound.
thanks for any interest.
roger wang
My W4S SX-500 weren't bad. The main area where I found them lacking, as I did with other ICEpower amps, was in the bass detail. The bass is there deep and impactful but even compared to my modest tube amps, the ability to separate the lowest bass notes was not there.
The tube amps had better 'definition' and ability to 'separate' the deep bass notes while the ICEpower amps seemed vague. I don't want to say monotonic in the bass because that was not the case with the W4S SX-500's. However, that was very much the case with my Bel Canto M300 monos.
If anything, I was expecting Class D to perform exceptionally well in the bass. I was surprised that a modestly priced tube amp did better.
I know guys who have 100k plus systems who added subs to their systems because their super duper tubes amps didn't produce enough bass through their super dupers prized speakers. It's all about balance.
If you need a sub especially for Classical music then you have purchased the wrong speakers and wasted 100K on the wrong set up. I would not touch a antique tube amp ,Class D amp or a sub with a barge pole.my only reference is live unamplified music. of course no boom boom boom garbage, this of course is usually well amplified.
Edits: 01/05/15 01/05/15
A good servo sub, sealed box or dipole sub can add quite a lot of ambient foundation without boom boom boom. I have heard it benefit even truly full range speakers. Probably you have only heard them poorly set up or for movie impact.
Also, stop with your mantra when you yourself admitted the ARC tube amp you heard recently sounded good.
FWIW, I listen to about 60% classical, 30% acoustic jazz and 10% rock/pop/electronic and I find a good sub to be valuable...it has to be set so that it is in phase with the main speakers...maybe this is only important if your speakers are phase/time coherent but mine are.
completely disagree No subs for me, Incidently when I mentioned boom Boom boom I was not referring to the sub but to rubbish rock /pop /electronic noise,
Edits: 01/06/15 01/06/15
Not all of it is that either...gross overgeneralization about a whole genre of music.
Some are not into dynamics , so they view full bandwidth speakers as unnecessary .....
Most rock/pop music...especially produced in the last 15 years, has quite limited dynamics because of compression. The big problem is not that most systems cannot play loud...most can play loud enough to barely stand it...the problem is the ability to play cleanly at the SOFT end of the loudness scale. This is something one will never notice if one listens only to highly compressed music where the soft sounds have been made much louder.
A good system for Classical music must remain clear at BOTH ends of the dynamic spectrum but I would argue that it is MORE important at the soft end where the ear/brain will be most sensitive to distortions. It has been shown that at loud levels we are less sensitive to distortion, which is why your whole power argument and staying clean on peaks is a red herring and it is at the soft end where the true high performance shows through. You have it 180° out of whack.
I do not know who you are responding to not sure what you mean by the soft end, it is the High End that is the most important for me, slightest distortion I can still hear even at my advanced age.
Soft end= quiet volume...for example the decay of a piano in a room, a hearing decaying echo in a room etc. Most systems fall apart badly as you go DOWN in volume where inherent distortions are more obvious than at loud volumes...really I was pretty clear so I have a hard time thinking you are sincere in understanding what I am saying.
Morricab I have never heard of Soft end or Hard end applied to the sound of music previously. no problem with decaying sounds with JOB 225 or other good Class AB amplifiers. I agree with you re Class D amplifiers .As for antique tube amps some sound very good but I would never buy one.
Edits: 01/08/15 01/08/15
Well, I don't think I used Hard end but soft, as in soft sounds, I didn't think was so difficult to understand...no matter.
What Kuribo doesn't seem to get is that I have auditioned nearly all the top Class D contenders and owned three to try them out. IF a really good one comes along I will be the first to admit it. IF...I am not holding my breath given what I have heard to date. If Kuribo is such a non-critical listener that he can't hear what is wrong then I guess that is good for him...I hear it in the first few bars of music being played.
I heard a pretty good hybrid amp last night that uses a Class AB SS output stage...only two transistors per side...
You have to keep in mind that my current reference amp is a hybrid as well and that means MOSFET output and even fully regulated output. I have a full tube amp as well. I am not fundamentally against the transistor but I think it needs even more care than the tube to sound good.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
nt
nt
try it! you know you want to!
nt
Soft passages is the only importance, Says the guy listening to dynamic compression , so yes only the soft passages are most important to Cab, emphasis on "soft".
Disbeliever,
Are you using Quads ........?
Edits: 01/07/15
"Says the guy listening to dynamic compression"
More unsubstantiated speculation...have you been sneaking into my house and listening while I am work?? You forget that you are obviously the one who is listening loud not me.
I guess your system only sounds good with a couple hundred watts and 100+db blowing your hair back...but that would also be pure speculation.
I gave up listening to Quad 63,s in the early 80,s I much prefer Transmission Line speakers my current speaker is the just released UK built Phantom Source Floorstander.
Edits: 01/07/15
Is that the one with Jordan drive units .... ???
Yes Phantom Source Floorstander transmission line speakers incorporate latest Jordan Eikona 2 drivers now manufactured by Scan-Speak probably the best transducer manufacturer.
Edits: 01/07/15 01/07/15
Kind of like a gross over generalization about a whole genre ofmusicamps?
try it! you know you want to!
Nope, wrong again... I have plenty of firsthand experience with all the major players in the Class D arena so my conclusions are based on those observations as well as my knowledge of how psychoacoustically wrong Class D is by design...read the research, it's out there and I have even given you links.
conclusions about class d and psychoacoustics are proven wrong by the large number of people who prefer it to tubes and class a. I guess all those people didn't read the memo. Or maybe they just don't like non-flat frequency response, distortion, and the tube "sound"....Nothing wrong with that....
try it! you know you want to!
"psychoacoustics are proven wrong by the large number of people who prefer it to tubes and class a."
And I guess you have reading comprehension problems because most of the psychoacoustic data points to those types of amps performing better...particularly when they are designed not to use global feedback. The preference is swinging that way because to more and more people with open ears and minds they simply sound better.
But enjoy your illusion....
try it! you know you want to!
I guess non-critical listeners like yourself don't need much in the way of sound quality to be satisfied...consider yourself lucky.
Nice try guru but your personal attacks do nothing to validate your pseudoscience but rather make you look the dunce....You seem incapable of grasping the concept that what you think is "best" can only be absolutely true for you with no guarantee it is "best" for others. It doesn't matter how many amps, class d or otherwise, you have heard. Your opinion is not fact, except for you.
All those who prefer class d to tubes are proof that your preferences are meaningless in the main. To assume only yourself and those who agree with your preferences are "critical listeners" is pure speculative BS tailored to assuage your deformed need for validation. If you need to insult a whole group of audio listeners in order to somehow feel superior, you really a sick dude, mate.
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 01/08/15
"All those who prefer class d to tubes are proof that your preferences are meaningless in the main."
A few guys switch over and suddenly it's "All those guys" LOL...what a stupid thing to say.
Nevermind the fact that when you ask them why many times it has nothing to do with sonics and all about size, space, heat, maintenance, WAF etc.
More unfounded, unsupportable speculation. Clearly you don't read much nor do you have any conception of what stupid truly means. Here's a hint: read your own post....LMAO.....Instead of denigrating the "critical listening" abilities of others, you might do well to improve your own critical thinking skills....
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 01/08/15
And you make it sound like its a mass exodus...where is your proof that many people have changed??
You don't even understand your own implications!
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Try googling Single ended amplifier and see where you get...just 20 years ago everyone thought that technology was long dead and buried...a phoenix from the ashes if ever there was one. Why? Discovery that 50 years of electronics engineering had been barking up the wrong tree! Now Class D comes along and its not even barking up the right planet! When machines rule the world then Class D might sound the best...to them.
Last week Behind the Barn find .....no class-D in this one for sure ... !!!
that one has definitely seen better days...who knows clean it up and recap it and it might even work.
Mola Mola fever seems to be on the move ....
"At CES, in the "On a Higher Note" room, we used the Mola-Mola system with the Vivid Giya G3 speakers and all Shunyata power and signal cables. Bruno did several presentations about the technology which were very well received. I was so impressed with the sound quality that I ordered a set of amps and the preamp for our reference room. We will be running them with the fabulous Magneplanar 20.7s and with the exceptional Devore 0/96."
-Caelin Gabriel
President
Shunyata Research
nt
nt
try it! you know you want to!
Cab, Pick one , power to set you free ..... :)
http://tuberesearchlabs.com/products.htm
Edits: 01/11/15
As a followup, I remember going to their site before and finding NO information. It is impossible to get any idea about what these could sound like except that they are Push/pull but no idea other than "best parts" "sophisticated circuitry" etc.
Price is rather steep as well.
I have heard about their products but not heard them. I have also heard that the company is unreliable at best. But, once again power is not the main issue with sound quality, IMO, showing me really powerful tube amps that may or may not sound good in the first watt is sort of irrelevant. If they don't sound good in the first watt (where I am at 90% + of the time), what would I do with 400 or 800 of those not so good sounding watts??
Maybe they are great sounding...I guess its possible and then you have a lot of nice sounding headroom.
Morricab
Really?!
Instead of stimulating someone's curiosity (I hope I did), looks like I stimulated someone's techinicality.
Ignorance is bliss. The generation lost is well beyond what you are thinking ....... Back to the very beginning
Oh BTW I don't use tubes at present as well.
With regard to Class D amps I agree with Morricab.
Edits: 01/08/15
you believe that somehow two opinions prove something one can not....Psst: opinions prove nothing....
try it! you know you want to!
Have you auditioned the Devialet-D Premier at home ?
nt
try it! you know you want to!
I thought you were in favour of Class D amps over tube amps like Steve Huff who changes his mind like the weather. FIeng in the UK had his D-Premier upgraded to the very latest spec. says he can not hear any difference in SQ.
Morricab,Thanks for quantifying your response, could you also specify the noise floor of your listening environment where you are doing these comparisons.
@Disbeleiver,
I can concur some of his class-d findings in my personal setups , but will have to admit , i never did make the effort to optimize for class-D, having a system optimized for toobs and sticking in a class-D for a shoot out without tayloring said system for the wants and need to make the class-D sound at it's best to work, is called gaming ..
I have seen where cabling, pre, etc, had made a big difference with class-D from harsh to smooth, grainy and fatique , to no way, so i have to be a bit reserved until i can do such again and Morri, would not give any details if this was done in any of his setups. Aside, i can see why many find merit in CLass-D, with the right speaker and the right combination used to optimize what they can do, yes for sure.
I have gone from not interested to full attn, no Dogma or apology necessary ...
Regards..
Edits: 01/08/15 01/08/15
WHat levels do you listen? What is the ambient levels in your room? What gear do you have? What speakers do you have? Have you measured any of it? So far you have demanded and haven't divulged any info.
Morri, you were the one , doing shootouts with a list, hence the questions and reference..Mine:
Room noise floor: 45db (noisier than i would like, for now, well until permanent room)Nominal Din: 78-82db, peaks 98-102db , avg din is dependent on music material.
Source Material: R/R, TT'S and Digital (CD only)
Pre: Tooby and SS ( alot to list)
Power: All Linear SS / class-d on woofer Columns. (3800 watts system)
Mains: 7ft linesource ribbons, twt/mid/ with dual bass columns (4) 12inch
-3db in room at 24hz.. (think IRS, except pure ribbons not planer)No tooby amps currently , none on the horizon, past thru many over the years and not going there again ..
Regards...
Edits: 01/08/15 01/08/15 01/08/15
I like ribbons...had Apogees in the past and have many friends with big Apogees (including the Grand). We all tried SS on them and all gravitated towards tubes or hybrids...especially for cleaner highs. Never liked the sound of ribbons or estats with pure SS amps.
I guess you meant to put this down below but whatever.
In my old room I was around 40db ambient levels, late at night a few db lower. In the new one I don't know but it is louder when the nearby church bells ring! In Switzerland we have thick concrete block walls that block out a lot of ambient noise.
"but will have to admit , i never did make the effort to optimize for class-D"
I even had mine plugged into a nice power regenerator to decouple it from the rest of the mains and two of the amps were using linear, rather than switching, power supplies, which also helps to reduce the noise. Didn't really help though... I used shielded cables as well for the power and interconnects.
The only one that sounded really decent was the original Devialet...and yet it was outperformed by a, half the price, Einstein "The Absolute Tune", which I didn't keep that long because I found it not to be at the level I had hoped (I got it for the relative kid safety factor...I separated from my beloved KR Audio VA350i because of the blazing hot tubes). So the Devialet, while far from bad doesn't measure up, IMO, to one of the worst sounding amps I have owned in the last 10 years (of course it is also not bad sounding at all but then its all relative). The measurements for the Einstein are available on Soundstage.com archives...or just google it. I bought it unheard because it did have promising measurements (not just low distortion but only low order harmonics and no rise in distortion with increasing frequency) BUT it was dynamically a bit too dead and a bit too "cool" tonally.
You want to hear a truly amazing sounding tube amp then try one of the following (of course with suitable speakers):
KR Audio VA680 (The Kronzilla monoblocks were the top rated amp in German Stereoplay for 10 YEARS before some others supposedly caught up and this new one is even better). Nearly perfectly balanced, amazing bass (tube or transistor) and a soundstage with 3d imaging like you wouldn't believe...extremely low noise floor as well (dead quiet with 109db Avantgarde horns).
Kondo Gaku-Oh sublime sounding parallel 300B amps with silver output transformers and hand made silver caps and resistors.
WAVAC HE 805. I haven't heard the biggest ones from this company but when I heard this one my jaw literally hit the floor...an intense music making machine.
The KR is the most attainable financially and at least for now for me the Kondos are unobtainium and the HE 805 is kind of a phantom (never actually seen a used one for sale).
The KR Audio VA680 would not work on my main system, maybe when i do a second system for another local, with dynamic drivers and 8/4 nom. 90db/1/m/. I listen to alot of large scale recordings , musicals etc, dynamic compression is an issue without the scale power brings.The big VTL's and AR's are not my cup of tea, too sedate , musically long ago, the Cary 805B was the most enjoyable, but of course, it was music limited, SS provides the best compromise and if Class-D comes around to replace my current SS, a/ab amplifiers, 3 prs of them would be nice.
I would go CLass-D if i leave Linear amplfiers, not tooby, the tooby pre stays thou .. :)
Regards
Edits: 01/08/15
The KR amps work VERY well with ribbons...extremely clean high frequency response is a main reason why I think.
Kronzilla DX monos are 100 watts. The important thing is if you do push an amp into clipping how quickly it recovers. Most music peaks are very short and so the clipping can go unnoticed at high volumes if it is short enough in duration.
Well, going Class D will get you the power I guess (although it won't SOUND particularly powerful) but to gain the peaks you will sacrifice a lot, IMO. It is a sacrifice I am not willing to make just to gain a few db headroom. Like I said, I have been down this road already more than once and for me it is a dead end sonically.
I am also not a huge fan of big, push/pull tube amps...at least those that are in pentode or UL mode. A few are superb but not many. Often they are too soft sounding and when you look at the measurements you see why. Transformer core saturation is very common and then they still use a fairly high amount of feedback, which also causes issues. Push/pull triode in Class A and without feedback can sound very nice though (like a VAC 70/70).
I can report that pentode amps of sufficient power can sound very nice as well. I use a 110 watt custom made set of amps with a quad of 1625 output tubes configured as pentode in each mono block, and it sounds fantastic. They really took a step up when mated with a Thomas Meyer based 6AH4 preamp. These amps are likely not commercially viable at any reasonable price, as the cost of parts alone to make them was pretty dear.
I do feel that custom tube amps are one's best bet for price/performance, regardless of type of tube amp.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Custom can definitely be a way to go but you have to know that you are getting a quality product afterwards. Also, doing so you realize the resale value if you are not satisfied is pretty poor.
My friend's Octave monoblocks are also a pentode design (not wired as triode or Ultralinear) and sound good but not in the ultimate sense, IMO. THere is a lack of "hear into" quality.
I am sure that the Thomas Meyer made a big impact for the plus in your system. I heard his stuff in Munich and it was really good sound. His like driving like power amps are great.
Morricab,Class-D on subwoofer columns only, class a/ab on panels, think scintilla low-z on mains , not Tooby territory unless GT400... The clipping is more consistent than you think , there is no way 100watts would work for me , maybe on your Horns, no way on the Thiels , again i would strongly suggest as cordell did and hook a scope up when listening ...
Regards
Edits: 01/09/15
Well, all I can say is simply you are wrong about working on Thiels. 100 solid watts plays them VERY loud and clear. I have now heard enough amps of that rating or less that did a very nice job at levels WELL above what I normally listen, which I already provided to you.
Did you build your ribbons yourself? If not, where did you get them? ASAIK, only the Apogee Full Range and the Scintilla had pure metal ribbons with sub 1 ohm impedance (the Full Range used transformers to match to their ribbons because one is like 0.3 ohms direct). If your ribbon has a trace like a snake on mylar or kapton then it should have a higher impedance, like later Apogees, Analysis audio or Relco (I almost bought a Relco with a ribbon that was about 1.5 meters long...about 3 ohms impedance).
Allen Wright, now deceased but formerly the owner of Vacuumstate, once made a tube amp specifically to drive 1 ohm Scintillas. It was able to make 150 watts into 1 ohm and it sounded the best I have ever heard from them. Played loud enough for our purposes without obvious clipping.
You make a big deal out of clipping but it is only an issue if it is audible...short term peaks at high levels often are inaudible as long as the amp doesn't hard clip. Crowhearst showed that negative feedback can significantly prolong the duration of a clipping event so that the amp still hasn't recovered long after the cause is gone. A no feedback amp recovers nearly instantly from overload.
quite frankly IMO " optimising " is absolute nonsense , all I am concerned with is just changing & comparing amplifiers for as close as possible to live sound , my preference is for an inexpensive Class AB amplifier over a very expensive Class D one. If the more expensive Class D gave better sound I would buy one.
Edits: 01/08/15
quite frankly IMO " optimising " is absolute nonsense - Disbeliever
carry on ..lol
Regards..
preach my opinions as gospel and insult you if you like something different. I like what I like in my system, regardless of whether or not it is class a, class d, solid state or tubes. Amps make no sound. Systems make sound. Your preferences may differ. I have no problem with that.
I have a problem with audio gurus who need to sell their opinions as fact to feel validated by propping up their flawed gospel via insults to an entire group of hobbyists with their lame pronouncements that either you agree with their opinion or you aren't a "critical listener".
try it! you know you want to!
Not discrimination, experience with all types of products. Maybe you should go out and get you some before preaching your Class D gospel. Your protests, notwithstanding, you have come out here recently as the biggest Class D apologist on this site. To claim you are balanced is simply laughable.
I myself own 3 different amp types...and one of the is Class D. I use it sometimes for a DIY system for the bass but I have them. Another amp is pure tube and a third is a hybrid. So you claiming that I preach only one way to good sound is also laughable. What I do know is that psychoacoustic studies suggest a particular pattern of distortion as being the least damaging and that Class D can never, ever adhere to that pattern...other amp topologies can at least approximate it.
and after repeating it ad nauseam, I don't think you are capable.
try it! you know you want to!
Well whatever, a completely baseless declaration from you is definitely not surprising. I don't need to convince you...live in your ignorance as a Class D apostle.
NT
try it! you know you want to!
Entirely agree with your 2nd para. When you find a Class D amp that you can enjoy let me know.
Morri ,When you start posting up meaningful numbers to go with your conjecture i can start taking you serious ,
what is soft ..?
What is loud ..?I mean really and yes i do agree details are important , at all levels , as is appropriate sizing of instruments , the system has to get small , as well as large to have any semblance to "real" , dynamic power without speaker and amplifier compression is whats necessary to do real , very difficult from a single point source low powered system unless horns and just because you cant hear dynamic compression , doesnt mean others cant and i dont listen loud , just real , spl is appropriate for size and dynamics , otherwords , the system will grow as per recording , classical is at appropriate avg din of 80db which is typically what i measure from my 10th row seat then grows to as much as 98-102 db on crescendos.
Takes large speakers and lots of power to keep it real , obvious why you refuse to show any data , yet keep shouting real , i have called you on this before , anti up , you favor toob cloud to SS hardness because you are clipping the amplifiers ..
Regards ..
Edits: 01/07/15
Soft : 60db or less
loud : 90db or more
Given my average listening level of about 70-75db with peaks to about low 90s I don't think dynamic compression is an issue. As for the amps I am using well under a watt on average with peaks of a couple of watts.
On sessions where I am a bit more rambunctious I will have average levels of 80-85db and peaks around 100db. Still < 1 watt on average and peaks probably still less than 20-30 watts.
This will be realistic enough for most jazz and chamber music...it is of course less than live crescendos on full orchestral works but I don't need that most of the time to still get a realistic feel (the upfront perspective of many recordings due to the way they are miked makes them sort of hyper real anyway). I don't even WANT to listen to rock music at full concert levels...its not fun to do so IMO. Peaks in the mid 90s is fine with me.
Just to show you that I do in fact make measurements in my systems, here is a review I did a few years ago on a Piega speaker.
http://www.piega.ch/review_archiv/positive-feedback-issue16.htm
The measurements are at the bottom of the review.
I'm confident Cab will straighten you out on whats good or not..... LOL
all those who prefer class d are wrong....wait for it.....wait.....
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 01/07/15
Class D amplification is still a relatively new thing at least for audiophile amps.
The Infinity Swamp John Ulrick designed was introduced almost forty years ago.
Yes, but 'traditional' class A AB amplification was introduced about 100 years ago. ;-)
another sixty years for switchers to catch up. :)
I don't know about that. Like I said, maybe it's just me an my personal preference not aligning with switchers.
nt
.
Abe,My experiences have been the same , preferring linear amplfiers with the exception for the bass , where subs are powered by class -d , yet i can hear and see why many would like class-d , it's high power gives them a great jump factor and unless you are running high powered toobs you cant get such out of low powered toobs. What most may actually prefer is toob sound vs ss in clipping and before the usual dogmatic responses , this is not a me vs them deal , i have all topologies sitting here and easily go between them and my issue with class-d for my main ribbons is the top end, regardless i can hear why others will go for the jump factor of class-D and like anything else if care is taken to optimize a particular setup , biases will tend to lean that way , otherwards my system maynot be optimized for class-d and after years of optimization for linear a , a/ab amplifiers , i'm sure there's an inherent bias towards linear, anyway I'm open and not married to any particular topology and if had to choose , i would prefer high ( my preference) powered class-d over low powered toobs all day ( i listen to a lot of large format material) with a few exceptions as i did with the Cary 805B with 93db speakers , it was great once you stayed away from large format recordings with high DR ...
Takes a lot of power to get realistic DR , lots of power or pretty high sensitivity.....
Another :Tubes vs. Transistors White Paper
http://sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors
You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping. More power is needed in larger rooms or if you like to play your music more loudly than most.
The key point I'm trying to make is that audiophiles usually are using underpowered amplifiers and are therefore listening to clipping amplifiers most of the time. When an amplifier is clipping, it is behaving (and sounding) grossly differently than its measured performance would suggest. This is because we always measure amplifiers when they are operating within their design parameters -- never when clipping. A clipping amp has horrible performance, so attempting to measure it is a waste of time.Now let's analyze tube and transistor equipment with regards to clipping, since that is the condition to which we usually listen. There is "hard" and "soft" clipping. If you go back to the oscilloscope investigations, you will see that solid state amps clip "hard" in that there is an absolute, rock-solid, limit to how loudly they will play. As soon as you reach that point, they immediately clip. This point is their power supply rail voltage.
A tube amp clips "softly." This is because tubes produce a cloud of electrons around their cathodes. This cloud has surplus electrons available so that for sudden current surges (such as musical peaks), a tube can deliver more current (electrons) and voltage for a few milliseconds before they clip. So their clipping threshold is not rigidly fixed as it is in a transistor amp. It varies depending on the dynamics of the music played.
- Roger Sanders
.
Regards ..
Edits: 01/02/15
Whilst I am not into antique tubes or JFETS I have to agree with every thing Abe says re Class D. I would not touch it with the proverbial BP IMO it is expensive Dreck if you know what that means, I suspect you do.
Edits: 01/02/15
"Will Class D improve much or are they stuck where they are for now??"You may be stuck where you are....in other words, your preferences and biases may be fairly set. In any case, no reason you have to like class d amps. Enjoy whatever it is that like. It's a hobby, not a job...
Let's remember too that there are many different class d amp designs, just like there are different types of tubes and ss. To generalize them as a class is simply ignorant. Some have a vary load dependent frequency response and others do not, depending on whether they have post output filter feedback or not. As someone has said "Some of the "warmth" that tube amp lovers usually prefer comes from an uneven frequency response caused by the high output impedance of many tube amps, so you might prefer a class D amp that does not include the choke in the feedback loop (and thus has higher output impedance)."
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 01/01/15
Let's remember too that there are many different class d amp designs, just like there are different types of tubes and ss. To generalize them as a class is simply ignorant.
Not really, unless there are other players that dominate this arena besides Hypex, Tripath, and ICEpower. Sure, there are slight variations in design 'around' this narrow selection of Class D modules, but otherwise they all share the same foundation.... a class comprised of Tripath, Hypex, or ICEpower.
Well, I have yet to hear a Class D amp that I can live with. However, there are many solid-state Class AB amps and several more vacuum tube amps that I thoroughly enjoy.
So yes, it's a personal preference and so far I have heard nothing in the class of Class D amps that I prefer. Perhaps they have a 'sound of their own' which I'll never warm up to. I don't know, but I'm willing to try again in a couple years..... as I have over the past several years.
This has come up before. I have and always have had an all tube system except for 6 months when I had a pair of Gilmore Raptors class D amps. They are modified Ice modules with a hugh linear power supply. Only my Berning ZH270's sound better on my Maggies than the Gilmore's. Abe always lists all the class D amps he has heard but never the Gilmores. The Gilmores were the late Al Sekalas favorite amps on his Maggies.
Alan
...that class D amps perform best on Maggies.
I heard the Raptors on Al's system and they sounded terrific.
At their price direct I would jump at a pair...if I had Maggies.
There are indeed significant differences in design that have major effects on the performance and sound of class d amps. One of the major differences is whether or not feedback is taken from before of after the output filter. This can determine whether or not the frequency response is independent of load or not. There are self-oscillating designs and non-self oscillating, etc. There are open loop and closed loop designs...etc....If they were all basically the same, there wouldn't be the large variety available in the market, with different people preferring one type over the other...kind of like tube and ss amps....hmmmmmm.....
try it! you know you want to!
So all of these Tripath, ICEpower, and Ncore modules offer the designer a choice of......... feedback before or after the output filter, self-oscillating designs and non-self oscillating, open loop and closed loop designs... ? ? ?
Regardless, all I am saying is that I have yet to find a Class D amp that I like. But I plan to keep trying every couple years or so. Hopefully I'll be in for a surprise someday.
Edits: 01/01/15 01/01/15
Tripath is prefilter feedback. Load variant frequency response. Many say they sound "tube like" with the right speakers.
Ice is post and prefilter feedback.
Hypex is post filter, self-oscillating.
Spectron and Nuforce have their own proprietary design.
Pascal and Anaview have come out with new, 3rd generation class d designs that many are raving about. Martens uses an Anaview in their $40K amp that has gotten great reviews.
So, yes, there are many different types of class d amps, even some hybrids with tube stages.
try it! you know you want to!
I have heard Tripath, Hypex, ICEpower, and even Nuforce.
The Rogue Medusa hybrid uses Hypex NC400 with a vacuum tube driver. I thought the Rogue was the worse of the bunch by far which surprised me given how much I love their all vacuum tube designs.
My Tripath amp was very nice but under powered. I think it was something in the range of 10 - 15wpc. The thought of trying a higher power tripath amp has crossed my mind, possibly an Audio Research model.
I haven't found 'the one' yet.
I do not believe that the Rogue or any other OEM uses the Hypex NC400 module. The NC400 is sold only to the DIY market. The NC1200 is reserved for the OEMs.
RD
What is the difference between NC400 vs UCD400 modules?
Interesting because many are raving about Rogue's tube/class d hybrids.Try Anaview's new ALS1000 or the Pascal modules in D-Sonic. If you read some of the European forums, many are replacing their tube and class a ss amps with them
To each his own.
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 01/01/15
Interesting because many are raving about Rogue's tube/class d hybrids.
Yes, Rogue's Hybrid Class D amps got a lot of great press and that was one reason I decided to buy the Rogue Medusa and give it a try, that and the fact that I love the "Rogue sound" with their all vacuum tube gear.
IMHO, the Medusa was very veiled, dynamically soft, and rolled off compared to the Cronus Magnum and Stereo 90 Super Magnum tube amps. On top of that, it was probably the worse Class D amp I ever heard which was a real shame as I was expecting the tube section to do some magic on those Class D Hypex modules. The plain jane basic W4S SX-500 monos were far superior to the 'hybrid Class D' Rogue Medusa.
I`ve been checking in on this from the start and it`s an interesting thread.
I thought I would post my experience going from a tube amp to a class D amp.
My tube amp was a Rogue ST 90 w/KT120`s..I absolutely loved it ! the problem was, my speakers (Revel F52) soaked up a lot of power and I wasn`t comfortable 'leaning on it' when the occasion called for it..just kind of made me nervous.
In place of the ST90 I put in a Class D Audio SDS-470 with 300/600 Watts.
Very first thing I noticed was the Bass. I had to dial down my subwoofer amp to get it to blend in.
The second thing I noticed was that the cymbals just didn`t have that nice delicate shimmer that the Rogue had, BUT after leaving the SDS-470 on continuously for the last few months (feels nice and warm to the touch at idle) and of course the usual listening sessions the cymbals have come around very nicely.
This Class D Audio amp has nice width and has nice depth too, I`m not ever missing the Rogue in that area.
It has the power I need and I`m happy enough with it for now that I plan on upgrading my phono Preamp to a tubed unit and some other tweeks. I will say that if a nice set of silver Rogue M180`s comes along I may very well be tempted to pick them up..MAYBE
For the money this amp reminds me of the NAD 3020 that I bought new back when to power my DCM Time Windows (the room was small enough to make it work). In other words a lot of 'bang for the buck'.
I`m using a Tortuga Audio LDR1 as a preamp if anybody`s wanting to know.
Anyway, I`m no wordsmith..I just wanted to add a penny or two`s worth to the thread.
Steve
Thanks for even acknowledging my pittance of a contribution to the thread.I`ve never seen so much fighting, other forums would have locked this type of thing down way back or be asked to take it to PM`s so that others could enjoy a somewhat meaningful dialog !
Very disappointed....
Edits: 01/09/15
And please enjoy the sound of your tube amp. Unlike others, I won't try to tell you what's wrong with your opinion or try to reference some study or PhD thesis in some lame attempt at proving the inferiority of your opinion and the superiority of mine. I don't have to justify my tastes to anyone. I have no need to bash your choice in some sort of sad attempt at making my choice seem "correct".Neither you nor I really need any outside validations to justify our tastes. Trying to somehow "prove" your choices are superior by finding fault with other's simply makes you look insecure and needy.
It's really ok to like whatever you like.
There is no "best" or "perfect" amp. Engineering is about compromises and all amps are just that, a trade off between various factors. If there was such a thing as perfect, there wouldn't be so many choices. Everyone makes their choice dependent on their personal tastes and how they place import on the trade-offs inherent in each type of amp. There is no right or wrong answer. There is no need to try to "prove" your preferences are "right" or better than someone else's. It doesn't make your choice "right" by making mine or someone else's "wrong"...
PS-Your link is FROM a class d amp manufacturer. You appear to have missed the critical wording in the last sentence....But that's fine; remember, it's really ok to like whatever you like.
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 01/01/15 01/01/15 01/01/15
Not trying to prove "one type is better than another type" per se. The links are there to provide some "engineering background" as to why the sonics are different from the Class D and tube technologies. Let's be honest: Tubes are MUCH more linear devices than sand, and Class D is just not as linear. Look at sine/square waves from a o-scope, and one sees what is being referred to here. I fully agree that there is no perfect amp, and that all amps fall short (to a greater or lesser extent) from perfection. I also agree with Nelson Pass, in that "they are switch amps with tons of feedback and it's amazing that they work as well as they do"There are both good and poor examples of all amp topologies. For example, the Yamaha MX-D1 was a very pleasant listening experience, and the clean 500 watts was enjoyable. I can certainly understand how some folks would enjoy some of the better high powered Class D amps. This is especially true if they were comparing them to mediocre sand or tube amps. Having said that, compared to the better tube or sand amps, the shortfalls with the Class D get in the way of maximum enjoyment. For me, comparing the Class D offerings to a custom 110 watt tube set up exposed significant sonic differences in the mid-range and treble, as well as the 3D rendering.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Edits: 01/01/15
Unless you are using 100db sensitive speakers , 125/ch is not enough for recordings with really good DR , regardles of topology selected ...
Regards
"Not trying to prove "one type is better than another type" per se."That is exactly what you are trying to do...Providing "engineering background" to support your preference. If you weren't, you would be posting this tripe.
Really, glad you have found something that suits you. Now please stop trying to justify it by "proving" there is something inherently "wrong" or substandard with something else....
Many people prefer class d to the sound of tubes. You aren't going to change that with your "engineering background" any more than I will change a tube fanciers opinion with similar "engineering background" of the negatives of tube amps. If you want to compare objective performance, I would be happy to compare specs of the ncore with your tube amp.
Again, you can enjoy what you like without denigrating the preferences of others or trying to make your choice somehow "superior".
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 01/01/15
The only tripe is coming from you, mate. I'm not saying anyone is "wrong" for preferring one topology over another. Just pointing out data that could help to explain sonic differences. However, it seems you are peeved because you don't like the physics, as it different from your per-conceived view of Class D.
Dial down the arrogance.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
You are talking out of both sides of your face...First you say post some drivel about "why Class D falls short", then back peddle with "Just pointing out data that could help to explain sonic differences".
"falling short" is a value judgment. No one has said there aren't sonic differences. Nice try....
Like I said, you want to talk objective performance, post your amp's specs. I will do the same for ncore and we'll see what the physics has to say about which amp performs better objectively.
If you want to talk about the superiority of your amps "sound", I am not interested.
try it! you know you want to!
I think almost everyone who participates in this site understands that when a comment about sound falling short is made, it is a value judgement. The links provided at the start of the thread were written by ENGINEERS, not some wacko audiophile. :-)
I agree that measurements are important. No amp that measures poorly will sound good. Most measurements presented are incomplete, as they show frequency responses into a straight resistive load, which tells one nothing about how it sounds into an actual speaker load, with the cross-overs and back emf to deal with. Remember the amps from Asia in the 80's with the very low distortion that sounded rather dreadful.
Lastly, the Yamaha Class D was a unique design, with all premium parts.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Class D apologist, that's his job!
Last time was a couple of weeks ago with Phelan's post.
Why the obvious class d troll- "you can keep your class d amp"? Why so concerned with what others think about class d? Why continue to damn class d with your faint praise for the Yamaha? Why try to validate your current flavor of the month amp (let's see, on audiocircle.com you have gushed about your vintage 80's receivers, the tda amps, the Yamaha, and I am sure several others) by comparing it to class d?
Your initial post shows you are nothing but a troll with an agenda.....
Now, when trying to validate your tube amp preferences, you bring up objective engineering "data" but back peddle when I offer to compare specs with the usual dodge about how specs don't accurately portray the performance with real loads. How do you know your amp performs any better with real loads than a class d amp? Do you have any data or is this more speculation?
If you were simply happy with your amp and wanted to share, you could have done so quite easily without the slap at class d and the insults to those that happen to be quite happy with it.
try it! you know you want to!
The thread headline was written as tongue in cheek, and it was meant to make light of the excessive enthusiasm sometimes gushed over by members. (I'm as guilty as anyone over this :-) ).To me, the trolls are the guys who lose their minds whenever someone fails to praise their choice of gear for musical reproduction, and starts name calling.
The whole purpose of these sites is to post observations, opinions, and factoids. An exchange of ideas and experiences. People who attempt to validate that "they are the only ones who are correct, and if you disagree, you must be a troll" are devoid of open mindedness. This is no venue to mandate political correctness. There are many ways to audio nirvana, with different amp topologies and speaker designs principals. If someone does not like one type of gear as much as another, so bloody what? Get over it, already. It's nothing personal, and anyone who takes it personally should re-evaluate. There have to be reasons why someone prefers x over y, so it's OK to postulate as to why that is so.
If you disagree about a topic, by all means, feel free to express disagreement. Making disagreements personal is small, and is a favorite tactic for folks with political agendas. Disagreements is not trolling. Trying to shut down debate is, and that is what some are promoting.
Some members love their Class D. Cool. I rather enjoyed the Yamaha MX-D1. However, I still hear issues with them, and it's OK to point that out, just like it's OK for all the Class D folks to point out their strengths, and what it is they don't like about tubes, linear sand amps, etc. That is the purpose of these threads, open and stimulate discussion.
I've noticed that some folks put forward the argument that one needs very high power to make music sound accurate, hence their love of Class D. I think there is some validity to this, in that it's a factor to consider. How much of a factor is a area open for debate.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Edits: 01/02/15
Tongue in cheek? No, it was taken as a troll, plain and simple.
I haven't expressed any excessive enthusiasm in posts here about class d. What I have posted about is the inappropriateness of slamming others personal preferences. Some go out of their way to try to prove the unprovable- that there is something "better" or "superior" about their personal preferences. Yours was more of the same- "I like tubes better than class d and here's why class d is inferior". Again, you don't have to prove anything- I doubt anyone really cares what you like. But you do have a right to like what you like without others telling you there is something substandard with what you like.
You can like something without condemning the tastes of others. You really don't need to try and drag something else down to make yours look better.
Again, if you want to debate something that is debatable, try objective performance. Post some performance measurements of your tube amp. As many have said, tube amps have rather poor measured performance when compared to other amp topologies. No doubt you will say, as others have, that they don't care about measurements, they care about the "sound" and they have found tube amps to sound "better" than other amps. That is purely subjective and there is no arguing taste. If you like the sound of tube amps, good for you. Share all you want. Just don't spread bs about how your choice is somehow "superior" to that of others when it is based on a subjective evaluation.
Trying to debate which sounds "better" is a flawed exercise in futility for those with limited knowledge or validation and insecurity issues.
No one said you can't like whatever you want. You don't have to praise class d. But you don't have to post bs about how it "doesn't measure up" as you try to prove your agenda and how much smarter your choice is...I really couldn't care less what you think of class d. What I care about is the lack of respect shown to others who don't share your preferences and the seeming need to push others down so you can stand higher.
try it! you know you want to!
It was tongue in cheek. I don't recall anyone appointed as the PC police. The only disrespect in this thread is you passing judgement, inferring intent of comment/observations that simply are not there. There was no disrespect or ill will expressed by me. If someone says Class (x) fall short, any reasonable adult would understand that its a opinion. The only ill will is you reading into content. If you do not like the links, too bad. They were written by engineers.
I wasn't referring to you specifically about the over enthusiasm. Most of that is over on another website. I am also guilty of occasional over enthusiasm as well. Lighten up, life is too short for all these falsely perceived slights you incorrectly infer.
Now, objective measurements is a rather interesting topic. Measurements made into resistive loads are OK, but do not tell the whole story about how things sound. As mentioned earlier, many of the 80's Japanese amps had very good specs, yet did not sound all that well. There is a debate to be had regarding what set of measurements would better capture what is heard. Perhaps a spectrum analyzer tapped of the output of the amp to the speaker would better explain what is happening. Then, there is the speaker itself. Some are a easy/benign load, while others can really tax the amp. Some amps do a much better job of delivering into punishing loads than others.
So, let's have a discussion about objective measurements. I agree they can tell us a lot, but not everything, about how a amp/preamp combo will sound.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Don't be disingenuous. You start out by bashing class d and then try to validate your opinion with "science" by linking to articles to bolster your "opinions" on why class d "doesn't measure up".Back peddle all you wish but I, as well as others, took it as bashing. I found it offensive.
It's a hobby. It is suppose to be fun. People who come here and put down others preferences with their holier than thou pronouncements about what is "better" or "best" are offensive and obnoxious.
I doubt anyone comes here to get peed on. I am sure with just a little effort you can share your opinions and experiences without bashing others at the same time.
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 01/02/15
If you take it as bashing, then that is your issue, not mine mate! The title was written with a tongue in cheek approach. Nobody put anybody down, except you acting as the PC police, taking offense for someone stating that Class D was not the holy grail. :-)
I agree that it is a hobby, and it is supposed to be fun. Also think we should be able to bring up issues about why there are differences in sound presentation. The links provided give some degree of insight as to why the differences exist.
Discussing measurements is a good way to proceed. Ultimately, differences with sound reproduction should be measurable. Not sure the traditional methods provided to the masses is enough data required to sort it out.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Unfortunately, you weren't bringing up issues of "sound differences" but trying to show how your choice was "superior" by trying to prove some deficiency with class d amps with your link. Call it what you want. A troll is a troll....Enjoy your tube amp.
try it! you know you want to!
Your KGB traits are showing. :-)
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
nt
try it! you know you want to!
God forbid we do not agree.
"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier!" (Paul Klipsch)
Maybe you should chill kuribo!
Besides, anyone with ears knows no currently produced class D amp can hold a candle to the sound of an all tube amp at anywhere near the same price point.
OK, now you can proceed to go off again! :)
NT
try it! you know you want to!
@ Mendel:Maybe you like tooby clipping , some are sensitive to it, just like some are to Class-D .... :)
Edits: 01/02/15
These are not the comments of someone with extensive experience with really good tube amplification. If you had delved somewhat deeper into this hobby and how psychoacoustics works you wouldn't be saying things like "tooby clipping" (whatever the hell that is)...makes you sound pretty Stooopid.
First I am an engineer and a tube guy. I have used in the past when my Lowthers were my main speakers many low powered set amps that sounded glorius. They also measured terrible. As an engineer I pay no attention to specs. Specs are usful to a designer but not to a buyer. All I care about is how something sounds. I have never found a correlation between measurements and how something sounds. If there was a correlation we would not be listening to tube amps any more. Some class D amps sound great like the Gilmores I mentioned above. The ops post did come across as a bash of class D amps. Maybe not intended but why post the link in the first place if it wasn't an attempt to prove your bias. I could be wrong but I don't think so. Been watching the Monk marathon all week
Alan
but some people aren't satisfied with that. They have to have some sort of intellectual validation for their own preferences so they can claim superiority. It comes down to insecurity.The op's post came across as a bash of class d because that is exactly what it was-a troll.
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 01/01/15
Yes and Class D is inherently flawed so it will never be as good sonically. While it is fine if some people prefer the sound...some people probably like the sound of buzzsaws as well but we don't take their opinions seriously.
A tube lover calling class d flawed is hysterical...LMAO....Do you feel bigger when you put down and belittle the tastes of others? Are you that insecure that you have to continue to assert your (imagined) "superior" tastes and preferences? Grow up.
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 01/04/15
nt.
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: