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I would greatly appreciate suggestions for tube amplification to power a three way dynamic speaker system with a nominal impedance of 4ohms, no less than 3.7 ohms, and 87dB sensitivity. A neutral to warm presentation would be preferred.My budget is under $6K.
Edits: 07/02/12Follow Ups:
N/T
"One this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
I'd like to forgo the buying and selling and simply make the best decision the first time, who wouldn't?
When I began there were a pair of original owner MFA M200's that looked great and were selling for a very reasonable price. I hesitated one day too long. There's another pair up right now but they look like they've been stored in a damp environment.
Right now, and to my surprise, the Carver is high on the list but they're a bit more than I'd like to spend. There are a couple of positive professional reviews yet there doesn't seem to be any actual user reviews which makes me feel a bit sketchy. But hey, I took a flyer on the PS Audio HCA-2 before there were any reviews. I needed an amp and planed to return it during the 30 day trial. I ended up enjoying a few switching amplifiers.
The Music Reference RM200 is another. Both seem to be able to handle the load my speakers present. Both would be next to impossible to audition easily.
can really help you hone in on what you are looking for or need,
especially if you're getting feedback from familiar members whose history
is known, who you respect and whose tastes may be similar.
Sounds like you're getting close to finding what to choose (an
exciting process indeed) - hope you're enjoying it!
"One this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
Neutral-to-warm and drive that load...that's easy
Parasound JC-1s. One of the handful of solid state amps I can listen to.
650 Watts into 8, 900 into 4. They sound fabulously musical--never etched or edgy--and can be purchased new for $5K per pair, delivered to you, from Spearit.
I love the sounds of the '750s with my V-steen 5As so much I bought a DNA-HT5, a 150Watts-times-5 amp, to drive my center and surround speakers.
...and I'm just a customer, not a shill.
.
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Tin-eared audiofool, former fotografer, and terrible competitive-pistol shootist.
"Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted." Albert Einstein.
Your Sensitivity is 87 db, but the speaker is four ohms. That means your actual efficiency is only 84 db. I can put the math up if you like, but the simple fact is you need about 600 watts (in most average rooms)and that does not exist in a tube amp for that price.
IMO/IME you would be far better off getting a speaker that is higher efficiency and higher impedance! Don't try to make tubes do things that are hard for them and you will really hear a lot more performance as a result. Its the same reason you would put good tires on a high performance car.
The Wilson Sophia 3s are 4 ohm speakers rated with a 87db sensitivity.Seems like the new ARC REF 75 had no trouble driving them at the recent Newport Show:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/clap-your-hands-wilson150arc150spiral-groove150sunny%E2%80%99s
Edits: 07/08/12
but a lot depends on the room and how loud the system is actually being played. Usually at shows the system is not played nearly as loud as at home!
And a lot also seems to depend on how conservative the speaker manufacturer is. Wilson is more conservative meaning that they seem to be easier to drive than the specs would suggest.
I have driven Magnepan 3.6 speakers with sensitivity of 86dB in a 16Ft x 8ft x 30FT room to Loud (over 100dB SPL peaks), at the listening spot, with several, 110 to 160 w/ch tube amps!
And they sounded great.
Such as ARC D125 (110 w/ch) and Qucksilver M135 (160 w/ch) tube amps.
Your MA-2 drove them, but they sounded like crap!
I doubt it, maybe you can explain yourself.
Wendell (of Magnaplanar) has always made a point of telling me that the best he ever heard his speakers sound was with the MA-2s.
perhaps you were fibbing about that MA-2, Honest One??
Mark at Audio Perfection agreed with me, when he had the MA-2 in his shop in the 90's..
You must be the one that is fibbing.
Fibbing about what???
The 1990s was a while ago. A lot has happened since then.
Fibbing about what???
Sure, 32 to 64 wpc will get you 100 dB peaks (presuming the 86 db is accurate, and the numbers relate to whether that is 1 watt into 4 or 8 ohms).
However - the sound pressure level of the MG 3.6 doesn't taper off with distance at the same rate as your typical box & cone/dome loudspeakers.
Not saying the Eidolons need 600 wpc either, but their sound level will drop off with distance much more quickly than the Magnepans.
They're Eidolons. The manual suggests an amplifier with 50-500 watts.
It also depends on how deafening you listen to your music.
Still I personally tend to prefer Higher efficiency speakers with tube amps. The great thing about easy to drive speakers is that you have so many more amplifier choices open to you. You can still run the 6 kabillion watt SS amps but you can also get those 5-25 watt SETs and actually have the option to pay for quality and not be forced to buy quantity.
I have yet to "hear" a LE speaker that offers any substantial advantage over higher efficiency tube friendly loudspeakers and usually they seem to sound much worse at low volume levels (except ESL panels). It's that lack of clarity at low level that may be why people buy the big SS amps - but their high negative feedback rules them out instantly as being High End regardless of their price points. It amazes me that sub $2k tube amps with modestly priced HEish speaker sound absolutely real while 1000 watt power amps and mega priced LE speakers sound so bad in comparison even at 20 times+ the price.
I'd personally consider Higher efficiency speakers - not everything needs to be a horn either. (Although horns get a bad rap because most judge horns based on those older $1k Klipsch models in box chains from the mid 80s).
There are many people out there who have the time and money and who still enjoy the buying and selling merry-go-round. I experienced it on a small scale myself until I reluctantly acquired these speakers.
Either the Eidolons are an unusual design that just happens to suit my listening taste so well that all other speaker systems that I come in contact with (and I admit I'm not looking for nor do I get around much anymore because of my satisfaction) don't sound as correct or as satisfying. I won't even get into their visual appeal.
I can't imagine that there isn't a used 100 to 250 watt tube amplifier out there that can at least power these speakers adequately down to the point were my little Velodyne subwoofers take over.
Hello Vic,
Glad you're so satisfied with the Eidolons. That's exactly how I feel about my Eidolon Diamonds. They make most other speakers I've heard sound so disjointed. It probably isn't necessary but I just wanted to make it clear that the BAT VK-60's mono-block amps are 120 wpc and the VK-75 mono-blocks are 150 wpc. The mono-block variants are sometimes referred to as the "VK-120" or the "VK-150"
Back when I had my Eidolons I was able to audition side by side in my house for a week the BAT VK-120 mono-blocks and the ARC-VT200 and to my ears the BAT was much the superior. I also owned the BAT 150se mono-blocks with both the Eidolons and the Diamonds and is what I highly recommend. They totally IMO ( and the dealer who was trying to sell me them) embarrassed a pair of Manley Neo-classic 250's. From my experience I really feel that the Eidolon/VK-150se combo will have you forgetting about the equipment and totally lost in the music. Good luck whatever you decide on.
enjoy,
Tom
Terrific and very usable information, thank you. Even used the Balanced Audio Technology gear is understandably a little pricier but with this type of information I may very well hold off until the right offer comes along.
It's difficult to describe to others but when I purchased the Eidolons it was so obvious that the core of my system was as it should be. I recently sold my Ayre and NuForce amps and have been using an older 75 watt stereo ultra linear which was either on loan or collecting dust. I'd like to find some tube mono blocks with more power for these speakers.
What are you currently using?
Glad to be of help. Please feel free to send me an email to discuss in more detail.
Tom
Very nice, Diamonds and Rex, that's like a full Monty.
Enjoy
We've had a good number of customers who have had good success with our MA-1s running full-range. Its my understanding that the speaker is easier to drive than the specs in your original post suggest.
If you plan to supplement with a subwoofer, so much the better.
Our MA-1 is 140 watts. So you are looking for something with that sort of power. If you look for a used set of MA-1s you might find something that suits the price range. New will be a little tricker but I would expect that a conventional power amp with at least four 6550s per channel ought to make enough power if you have a subwoofer. There are a lot of amps out there that might suit.
How big is your room?
Ralph, I appreciate the time you've taken to help me.
My room is an oddly shaped L 22'x28' with a vaulted ceiling. I'ver never actually looked into Atma-Sphere and by all accounts your MA-1 sounds like it would be a fine and incredibly unique choice.
As a huge Lord Buckley fan Sphere Gasser would easily become daily speak in our house.
Currently, its slim pickin's on the used market. Even so, the cost along with any upgrade is a bit over my budget. Your participation has, at least, made me aware of your amplifiers. Thanks.
I think they may be measuring the sensitivity from the bottom of the curve rather then near the top. They seem to be easier to drive than the specs suggest, and the flat impedance curve doesn't hurt either.
I'm using an MFA D75 (75 watt stereo) and it has always sounded lovely up to a point. Clearly, these speakers need a bit more of something.
The Carver 180s advertise as a perfect fit but there is little first hand experience available.
If you were running that full range then yes, you would be clipping it in a lot of rooms!
For what it's worth, that's what I thought about my Thiel speakers.... needing 600-watts +/- and I had a pair of 600wpc Bryston monoblocks driving them.
I also have a 100wpc Rogue Cronus Magnum (KT120) tube amp that is doing an awesome job with these less than efficient speakers rated at Sensitivity (2.8v - 1m): 87 dB, 4 Ohm nominal, 3 Ohm minimum.
Go figure. And I tend to listen to my music at moderate to loud levels.
-In my room (17' x 21') there is no way I could get away with that- I would be clipping the amplifier a lot.
My room is only a bit smaller than yours at 24x13. Technically, I would also lean toward a large pair of amps for these inefficient speakers but I am very surprised that my 100wpc tube integrated is performing as well as the 600wpc Brystons and the 250wpc Manley amps that I have since sold.
Hello Vic,
Those specs are identical to my current Eidolon Diamonds and my previous Eidolons. From my experience I can tell you the BAT VK-60 or VK-75 mono-blocks will work extremely well and at their used prices are within your budget. A step up at around 7k used would be the BAT VK-150se mono-blocks. Detailed, fast and dynamic, and best of all full of dense instrumental texture/timbre of tone. Good luck to you.
best,
Tom
Check these out, if you are looking at monoblocks.They can be had for around your price range
If you have, could you give your impression of where they might rate sonically between say ARC and Conrad Johnson?
..with all due respect, how the heck would anyone be able to say, without using all the same components... in the same room?
Thank you, yes that's a good point.
Actually, I should have more clearly asked for a simple personal and subjective impression of the Carver. I've read a few positive reviews but I seem to trust personal experiences a bit more.
This won't be an issue in terms of watts as you simply use the 4ohm tap. So most tube amps will have no trouble with your speakers based on the specs provided.I don't necessarily see the point in overspending - plenty of ~2k amps sound excellent and may be better than any given $$6k amplifier - it will depend on the "type of" sound you like.
Some good brands mentioned here already but I'll add Line Magnetic and Audio Space as some of the best value for the coin tube amps I've heard. And I recently bought something from both of them.
I would give a serious attempt to try and audition Line Magnetic and Audio Space - the former makes the ridiculously good 219Ia at about $7,500 and is a massively powered 845 SET with 300B and 310a driver and input tubes. Build quality is as good as amplifiers get. (I bought their CD 215 CD player which is not available in the US (yet).
http://www.toneimports.com/lmaudio/lmaudioHome.html
Audio Space looks sexy but actually sounds excellent as well and attractively priced. I could not pass it up and I am currently reviewing an 82db sensitive loudspeaker with the Audio Space mini-2 amplifier. This is maybe one of the best EL34 based amplifier I have so far heard even with stock tubes/caps (the bang for Buck is very high). It has the open extended presentation and pace of a good KT 88 while retaining the EL34 weight and valve body. And the headphone amp section is worth the price by itself IMO.Both brands offer a lot of different types and slightly different layouts and circuit designs. I liked the less expensive EL34 Mini over their more expensive KT 88 models (doesn't mean it's better but I just preferred it on the particular speaker - I could have preferred the KT88 on another speaker). This is why I say don't just set a budget and spend - it's very possible a less expensive model will tickle your fancy. I prefer the Audio Note OTO EL84 to the more expensive Audio Note Soro. Some like the new 300B silver Meishu over the 211 based Ongaku at 4 times the price - some don't of course.
Edits: 07/03/12
I hear the new Rogue tube/class d hybrid sounds just like their big tube amps.
Four grand. If I was in the market for a pricey amp they'd be the first thing I'd check out.
They say there is nothing new under the sun, but this might be that new thing.
Google Rogue hybrid.
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Dr. Greg House
That's what I would be looking for, if that was your question.
“Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead"
― Charles Bukowski
...but the few that show up used, are generally pretty rough or complete beaters in poor shape. It's a cool looking amp but that doesn't guarantee great sonics. Have you heard one?
That was Mesa's short exploration into the hifi market - even though they were well received by the critics, it looks like it wasn't enough to make the long term commitment.
No, like you just read about it, and since I used to own some of their great bass amps, I was interested. They were few on Audiogon some ten years ago.
“Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead"
― Charles Bukowski
Last fall I was given a tour of the nearby Petaluma, California facility while delivering a 400+ for a couple of weeks at the spa. There was actually a Baron in use at one of the amplifier work stations.
From the sheets of plywood stacked at the two CNC cutting machines to the custom snake skin covering everything is done in house. A legendary level of quality and support at a reasonably competitive price. Mesa is proof that manufacturing in this country, let alone in California, can be profitable with skillful management.
No question:
Quicksilver 88 mono amps (80/channel)
RAM Labs (Roger Modjesky) RM200 at 100/channel. There would even be money left to have Rodger hand wind the transformers.
Edits: 07/02/12
My Thiel CS2.4 are three-way rated at 4 Ohm nom. (3.0 Ohm min.) and 87dB sensitivity.
I'm hearing outstanding results with the Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated amp with KT120 tubes (about 100wpc). The Rogue Atlas Magnum is essentially the same amp w/o the preamp section in the Cronus integrated.
For a pair of larger monoblock amps, I would seriously consider a pair of Rogue M-180s with KT120 tubes. MSRP $5800
The relatively small Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated with KT120 tubes is doing a surprisingly nice job with my less than efficient Thiel speakers. If I weren't down sizing my system to minimize clutter, I would seek out a pair of used Rogue M-180 monoblocks. There was a pair up on Audiogon a couple weeks ago for $3700.
This is a great starter amp, as well, or at least it was for me. The OP will need the power.
Observe, don't think
Bought a Cronus a few years back when I was depressed. Big mistake. Didn't do anything all that well. Perhaps I just don't like their house sound.
To each his own.
Jack
I agree. Sounded to me like a typical "budget" amplifier. To be fair I never had one at home though.
About the Cronus Magnum, I wasn't at all impressed with it either with the EL34 tubes. But as I have mentioned a few times, the Cronus Magnum (bigger power supply and other premium components) can accommodate KT90 or KT120 tubes.
It's a totally different sounding amp. I'm using one right now in my primary setup and couldn't be happier. And that's saying a lot coming off of some other fairly decent amps like the Manley Neo Classic 250's and Bryston 7BSST2 monoblocks.
Have you heard the Carvers? How would they compare to the 250's?
Alan
I have not heard the Carvers but I am surprised that the Rogue at 100wpc is performing right up there with the 250wpc Manley monoblocks I once owned.
?
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Dr. Greg House
.
Well the itch is back and I'm looking to sell the 250's and opt into a pair of Carver 180's.
A little apprehensive on the move, however the 250's are not gone yet. I'm thinking it will take awhile to sell them at a decent price.
How long did it take to sell yours if you dont mind me asking?
Took me about a month to finally sell my Neo Classics but I priced them right. Yes, Manley raised their prices but since I bought mine used, and before the price hike, I just passed the savings on rather than trying to profit.
Is there anything you particularly miss about the NEO's?
I can't say I miss them that much because my goal was to get a cooler running pair of amps that didn't need tube replacement.
The Bryston 7BSST2 amps did a great job at 600wpc each but they didn't compare to the Manleys for that harmonically rich and robust sound that I tend to enjoy. The Brystons were refined enough and had lots of punch and dynamics but were a little dry. I used the Aesthetix Calypso tube linestage to warm them up and the combo was outstanding. I was happy.
I was always curious about the Rogue Cronus Magnum tube integrated and when one showed up used a few months ago, I bought it, mainly to try in a second system with more efficient Tannoy speakers. To my surprise it sounded very good (after upgrading to KT120 tubes) even on my Thiels. I decided to downsize the system even more. I sold the Bryston amps and the Aesthetix Calypso Signature linestage.
My main setup now consists of the 100wpc Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated driving the Thiel CS 2.4 speakers.
-------
The Manleys are inherently warm, rich, and robust sounding. The bass is especially good with lots of authority and excellent detail and very slight roundness. The overall presentation is smooth and warm, with an expansive soundstage. With 250wpc the music is always effortless with lots of dynamics.
If you like the way your Manleys sound but want to try something else, I would get another amp and give it a try before selling the Manleys, if you can afford to keep both for a while.
What I don't miss: The cost of replacing 20 power tubes and getting them biased. The bias on my Manleys settled down and everything was great after about a month of adjustment with the new tubes, but that last retube was rather expensive. The bias pots work fine but are a little touchy. The Rogue uses 10-turn bias pots per tube so it's much easier to dial-in and in this case, I have only 4 power tubes to bias.
There are other amps that are much better.
Jack
I'm not sure that the KT120 tube was out when they first designed the Cronus. On the other hand, the KT88 and KT90 have been available forever. But I believe you need the Magnum version to run other than the EL34's, but I'm not sure.
Even within my Cronus Magnum, the EL34 just didn't sound very good and I generally love the EL34 sound (as I did in my Manley Neo Classics and the AES/Cary SixPacs). Switching to the KT90 and KT120 made all the difference in the world. It was not subtle at all.
I would look at used EAR amps. Neutral and very dynamic. I never cared for Dynacos. Also while I think Atmasphere are great amps they dont perform well with lower impedance loads. With most tube amps the impedance is much more important than the sensitivity. I also noticed that there is a used Einstein integrated on the Gon, but I think that this is a hybrid design. I think you will find that most tube amps, except the very best (expensive) will fall short in the lower range in your system. One of the best lower wattage amps I have ever heard are the Boder Patrol amps but they are out of your price range.
not so much the impedance.The speaker is rated by Sensitivity, and it is also four ohms (which is not hard for the MA-1 BTW), which means its actual *efficiency* is really only 84 db! This is a low efficiency speaker, and in most average sized rooms would need a good 600 watts to get going.
Overall, sounds like its a bad choice for tubes in general.
Edits: 07/03/12 07/03/12
But is only 50 watts. Yes, its a hybrid, and it has the best bass of any amp I've ever owned. With the right tubes it can be superb, but I doubt it would drive his speakers well. I haven't heard the newest version.
Jack
They are a wicked piece to drive for most amps. There is also a bunch of stuff relating to this on OTL.
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
Yes this is true the best I have ever heard the Soundlabs is with an Atmasphere amp. Ralph has chimed in so he may be able to explain the magic of this pairing, but I stand by my earlier assertion that Atmasphere do best with higher impedance speakers. It isnt so much that the Atmasphere products dont drive lower impedance speakers I think it is more that you dont hear the true capabilites of the amps.
You might have a look at Bob Latino's ST-120 or M125 monoblocks. They have the power, sound and are priced right.
Rogue Atlas Magnum with KT120 tubes. About 90 wpc and excellent.
a used pair of MA-60 although expensive can be had for under 5K.
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
Agreed that these are among the best 60 Watt tube amps available, period. There is a pair up for sale on A'goN for $3995, 3.1's with every available upgrade. This would cost over $9k from the factory today!
If you get confused, listen to the music play (Garcia/Hunter)
Dynaco Stereo 70 comes to mind, might be a little low in terms of power. About $400~$500 bucks. Not as detailed as you might want.
Rogue 88 amps are available used under $800. 60 WPC. 60 watts ought to be about right, depending on what kind of music you listen to.
A Citation II can be had under $2,000, excellent amp, solid 60 WPC. It's a hard amp to beat. Probably the best output transformers ever made, bar none.
There's an Audio Research D-70 on Audiogon for $800, 60 WPC. A-R amps are pretty nice.
There are a number of Conrad-Johnson amps available on the used market, these are very good amps. There's a Premier 11 (70 watts/ ch) on Audiogon at the moment for $1,450. If you'd like more power, there's Premier 1 (200 watts / ch) on Audiogon for $3,000
The C-J stuff has a slightly "warm / sweet" sound but only slightly so.
My Audio Research D70, mark II, has more than enough power to drive either my Dunlavy SCIV or Fulton J speakers. And I listen to my vinyl records at full, live levels. DO just bought a used Audio Research amp, and stated in his review of the CJ ET 5 preamp: "Of course, should you desire a bit of romance, all you need to do is team it up with the right power amp. My latest, used acquisition, an Audio Research D 70 Mk II, did the trick. The result was a glorious midrange with rich organic textures and sufficient residual detail to satisfy any music lover."
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