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I've been curious, recently, about upgrading my cartridge and read a comparison review of two higher-end Dynavector cartridges. The reviewer mentioned that your phono stage (and of course other components) must be of sufficient quality to take advantage of the differences between the cartridges.
This comment gave rise to my question: How - other than auditioning different preamps/cartridges - can you determine in advance if the phono/line stage you presently use will be "good enough" for a higher-end cartridge? Are there specifications, circuit design criteria, etc. that you can refer to that would give an indication that your preamp is of sufficient "quality"?
Follow Ups:
I Had purchased a pair of Magnepan 3.6s and Bryston preamp, and phono box.
I had to order the phono box.
So I was listening to my new stuff with my old DAC, and it was good, but not 'THAT" good.
So i was feeling a little queasy about blowing so much money.
Anyway, two weeks and i get the Phono box. To go with my also new Rega P5/Benz Glider.
So I am listening to a recording I knew pretty well and i burst out into tears of relief and joy.
The music was so wonderful i finally had my answer! Yes the new equipment was great. (this is a very abbreviated version recounted in greater detail in some other posts)
(Just my old digital stuff was not so great. Which I sort of fixed with the 'nefarious' (by Ozzy's standards anyway) VAC Standard i added as a glorified tube buffer. Instead of blowing thousands more than I had on piles of digital stuff)
This is my experience.
Yes, a better component will make your entire system shine. I think a good cartridge is indispensable to enjoying vinyl playback. Doesn't mean you can't have lots of fun with a less expensive cartridge though, but it could reach it's limits -- type of music, type of listening sessions, for instance.I got quite confortable with a $550 cartridge, except that cartridge is now $1000! It will come down to that you could profitably use the extra money to upgrade another area of your system.
Just my opinion (recently upgraded my line-level preamp and I can't believe how much I was missing)!
Edits: 05/30/12
I interpret these comments as meaning your system has to be suitable for distinguishing between these two cartridges. If you can't hear any difference, then you might as well get the lower cost cartridge.
This is really a basic consideration in A/B auditioning of components. If you can't tell any difference in a system comparable to your's, then it doesn't matter which one you get. Similarly, if one is more expensive than the other and if the more expensive one sounds better, is the improvement worth the additional cost?
----- Dan
"Where the hell's all the f***ing kangaroos?", Thelonious Monk in Australia, circa 1965, during drive from Sydney to Newcastle
Hi Dan, I agree with you that the reviewer's comments were meant to convey that "your system has to be suitable for distinguishing between these two cartridges."
In my original post I was trying to learn if there were some constants (e.g., specifications, circuit design, component quality) that would indicate that one phono stage was "better" than another. For instance, if you were looking to buy a computer for gaming you would check the cpu speed, video RAM, etc. to see if it was suitable. For loudspeakers you might check on-axis frequency response. Is any of this type information available for phono stages? For example, is there a wealth of information that says a phono stage using 12AX7 tubes, in a no feedback design, is "better" than one using jfets? Or, would a dual mono stage with closely matched high grade components have a lower noise floor or wider bandwidth than one of the same price (in a pretty box) but using cheap components?
If I were looking to upgrade from a point that I believe is already good, am I restricted to simply picking one that is much more expensive? How will I know before I spend a fortune that I have actually improved my component? Is there a way of knowing?
"If I were looking to upgrade from a point that I believe is already good, am I restricted to simply picking one that is much more expensive? How will I know before I spend a fortune that I have actually improved my component? Is there a way of knowing?"
It's ridiculous, right? Someone just has to know the one divine, pragmatic pathway. :^)
When I have heard other systems featuring a different phono stage, using my cart that sounds better to me. That same process would apply to all my gear. Sometimes I only get to read about a piece or get a valued friends advice. That is what system building has been about for me. As for a direct answer the phono amp really must be capable of maximizing the cartridge's potential. Knowing that a priori is very difficult without taking others opininions very seriously.
Steve
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Nothing is ever good enough. Until you smile, keep searching
The 'weak link' is the one item holding back the rest of a system.
Changing anything else in that system will result in not hearing a difference, or it just not sounding as good IMO.
Only changing that worst item will result is a possible 'AHA!" moment.
So generally all the stuff has to be good to hear a change in a part. If something is less, the you can be just wandering in the dark forever, unless you hit the magic worst bit and change that one holding the rest back.
I just try to buy good stuff and hope it works. I upgrade, but do not do so endlessly....
And if you have that bad component and have to add others to mask it you will be forever lost as now there are 2 products that need to be changed for the "Aha" moment.
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
Not to mention that if you have two good products that are designed to do the same thing and you use them at the same time in the same system. Transparency or not?
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
"I just try to buy good stuff and hope it works."
Now there's a formula for success.......
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Edits: 05/29/12
.
Hah! You seem to have done pretty well, Elizabeth!
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
As you can see you are not really going to get an answer to your question. You just have to listen and decide for yourself what you like. Listening to friends systems can also be helful. What is good enough is in the eye or ears of the beholder.
Alan
As Alan says, "you are not really going to get an answer to your question." It is a little frustrating to learn that there doesn't seem to be a way to identify, in advance, whether a component has the sound-reproducing quality to "match up" with other components in one's system. It seems that the only way to determine if a component is suitable is to find one, take it home, and listen. Then if it doesn't meet the need, sell it on.
I suppose that is why Audio Forums exist, to enable people to experiment and then advise others if they like the component - in their system, room, brains - or not.
I would have thought that, after a half-century or so of development, there would be some way to determine if one component - versus another - allowed a better reproduction of music. Oh well, I guess I'll never know the answer as to what is a good, better, best phono stage.
Even though most people here frown on magazine reviewers read them all and find one that seems to have similar tastes as yours and then listen to phono stages he recommends. That at least will narrow down choices for you.
For phono stages John Marks can be pretty good
Alan
"I've been curious, recently, about upgrading my cartridge and read a comparison review of two higher-end Dynavector cartridges."
You offer no perspective for quality. Often reviews are taken out of context. Perhaps a higer-end phono/linestage would be an appropriate enough resolve for your curiosity.
I remember one day many years back at a audio shop where the guys allowed me to swap phono stages on a Clearaudio turntable with one of the lower priced Benz Micro catridges (think it was called "Silver"). Anyway it was a sort of medium output moving coil and I was swapping budget phono stages, one of which was a Graham Slee. Then for fun we swapped in the Graham Slee Era Gold V ... Lordy what a jump in performance! It sounded like we have upgraded everything, it was not subtle.Good enough is really a nebulous concept, it's really is it good enough "for me"?
You can experiment to get something you really like ... and if you experiment with better stuff, typically more expensive, watch out! ... after experiencing it first hand your "good enough" may change and leave your pockets a lot lighter.
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
Edits: 05/28/12
I own a decent amount of gear. I have vintage integrated amps with very good phono preamps, I have preamps with very good phono preamps and my two most recent phono stages coldn't be farther apart. An Electrocompaniet ECP-1 and my BAT VKP-10SE.
With every cartridge I own, the BAT is superior to the EC. So let's get that out of the way. Oh, and the BAT is significantly more expensive. The EC is Class A solid state and the BAT is tubed. Lots of tubes actually.
I won't bore you or me with what the differences are between the two, sonically speaking. But what is interesting is the inverse of what your reviewer said is also true. My less expensive carts also sound better with the BAT over the EC. The BAT seems to maximize the more modest carts while certainly matching well with some of my more expensive carts too. And hearing what these sub-$200.00 carts can really do is a lot of fun.
So, if I were a reviewer, what I would tell my readership is that a great phono preamp can potentially make all of your carts sound better. After all, you can only polish a turd so much.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
then I found what's *good enough* for me.
"...other than auditioning different preamps/cartridges - can you determine in advance if the phono/line stage you presently use will be "good enough" for a higher-end cartridge?"
You really can't determine in advance. You have to try various phono preamps for yourself along with various cartridges. If you have a trusted audiophile friend with similar preferences as you, he might be the next best resource in describing his experiences. I don't put a lot of faith in magazine reviews unless they do a detailed comparison against another piece of similarly priced gear. Otherwise, it's mostly audiophile fluff to me.
Even some of the more expensive phono preamps aren't necessarily the best or to my liking. I've tried the following over the years:
Cambridge Audio 640p
Musical Fidelity V-LPS
Graham Slee Era Gold V
Hagerman Cornet II Silver Edition (factory built tube phono)
PS Audio GCPH
Musical Surroundings Nova Phonomena (battery powered)
Aesthetix Rhea (tube)
Rogue Ares (tube)
EAR 834P (tube)
I've also used and still own the Bob's Devices CineMag 1131 "Blue Version" SUT and the Bob's Devices 3440A CineMag SUT, both are outstanding for coupling a MC cartridge to a MM phono preamp.
For the price and versatility, my favorite is the PS Audio GCPH. It gets very little respect because there are so many of them out there and they don't cost a King's ransom.
For a tube phono, my favorite is the Rogue Ares.
My present phonos include the PS Audio GCPH & Musical Surroundings Nova Phonomena.
Oh, and for those who dismiss the Technics SL1200 direct drive turntable and arm as insufficient to benefit from some of the better phono preamps and cartridges, all I have to say is that they are dead wrong based on my personal experiences.
and chances are, you've not really heard any of 'em at there true potential using the T1200.
> > Oh, and for those who dismiss the Technics SL1200 direct drive turntable and arm as insufficient to benefit from some of the better phono preamps and cartridges, all I have to say is that they are dead wrong based on my personal experiences. < <
Well, that's neither here nor there since your experience with vinyl is relatively limited. Therefore those "benefits" are simply a matter of YOUR perspective based on YOUR limited experience.
The fact is, and nearly anyone with true high-end vinyl experience will echo, the so-called "benefits" of various phono-stages are much better heard with superior 'tables/arms.
The same goes for cartridges, although "benefits" can be heard with the T1200 and it's ilk, they'd be far more obvious and resolute using a superior turntable/arm.
tb1
Are there noticeable sonic differences between SS and tube stages? My tolerance level is the $2500 level and I would buy something more aesthetically pleasing if there isn't major sonic improvements.Example-
Fosgate over the Manley for about the same price.
Yes, I found the tube phonos to sound warmer overall and somewhat more robust or full-bodied relative to the SS units, especially in the mids.
On one extreme was the EAR 834P. It has a deep rich sound with lots of energy in the lower mids down into the bass but it's not nearly as transparent and extended as the Rogue Ares. To me, the Rogue strikes a great balance between being sufficiently "tube-ish" w/o being too warm, rich, or dark. It has outstanding top end treble too w/o being bright.
I have not heard the Fosgate but an audiophile friend who lives about 20 minutes away told me he thought it was a bit noisy. I can't say if it was just the unit he auditioned or if this is typical for the Fosgate phono.
For the tube phono preamps that I have personally owned, I thought the Rogue Ares was especially nice. It was right up there with the much more expensive Aesthetix Rhea but they sounded very different so it may come down to personal preference. The Aesthetix was warmer sounding but kind of on the dark side. The Rogue was more transparent and extended especially up top.
I've tried a number of phono preamps and decided to go back to the SS PS Audio GCPH. For the money, it's one of my personal top picks.
That's a standard reviewer cop out line. If you don't hear the same smack that (s)he is laying down, then obviously the fault lies in the resolving capabilities of YOUR system. Last I checked, a reviewer's opinion and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
The ONLY opinion that really matters is YOURS!!
Perhaps the real question is whether the reviewer was good enough as his "good enough" comment was merely a self-aggrandizing throw-away line.
You can look at the cartridge Specs. and make sure that it doesn't have any unusual loading requirements but probably it comes down to trying it.
Enjoy, Rick
This is a question I would also liked answered. Wondering just how much more(if any) sonics are improved instead of just plugging into a built in phono stage. Other than using a SUT for low voltage MC's, is a $2500 phono stage that noticeable in your 2-5k integrated?
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