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Re: I am not saying cables don't make a difference.

[ Since people can hear different things when measurements stay the same, I would say this goal is unattainable. ]

And some people refuse to hear what is there, even when the changes are gross. But this is getting into the realm of DBT's, and so, I will not argue further. I ask that you do the same, or the posts will have to be deleted.

However, it is pretty obvious, that you are ducking the question entirely anyway.

[ We know the capabilities of the ear. ]

I love that all inclusive "we" Mike. Like you yourself know all of the available reseach on the subject, and fully understand it. In lieu of this, then you MUST be taking some one else's word for it. I guess it comes down to which "guru" you are willing to follow, eh? Who is your personal guru, mtry?

Fact is, while we think we know the limitations of the human ear (actually, and more correctly, the ear/brain interface), we have been fooling ourselves for years.
We have seen the establishment accepted levels of audible THD creep down from several percent in the 50's (3-5% was commonly accepted as being inaudible), down to 1% in the 60-70's, then down to 0.5 to 0.3% in the 90's. Back in the 50's, they thought they knew for sure too.

IM distortion has very little hard core data for what is audible and what isn't, part of the issue being: which two-tones for the IM signal? Multi-tones are a completely new type of test signal, one which is closer to real music than sine wave THD, or two-tone IM, and still no one knows what the thresholds are for those.

The time domain is virtualy ignored, and yet, this is an area that an audio cable can affect. It is just not investigated by very many people, and there is little or no published research of this type of signal distortions.

Aside from the curently accepted thresholds of detection, sensitivity and JND's, where are the studies that directly correlate those numbers, with what we can hear on music, using very high performance playback systems? Where are the studies on cummulative distortions, as I discuss in this post:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/30013.html

Obviously, the recording studio can "use up" quite a bit of the tolerance we might have for added distortions and signal abberations, but there is virtually no data on this kind of cummulative signal distortion, and when the actual thresholds of audibility with music under home playback will occur.

Not even mtry has any such citations, because there are none.

[ Sorry but I have a friend with a truck that has lots of torque, pretty good top speed but not so good acceleration. He is beaten off the line by almost all cars, even Hyundais, but wins in top speed. ]

And you make my point for me. Besides, you must know, your freinds truck is the exception, not the rule.

[ I guess this statement applies to Stephen Hawking because I do not believe he has any experience in high end audio or audio technical issues? ]

Actually, it does apply, completely. I do not believe that Stephen Hawking has any experience as an audiophile, nor has he designed any high end audio components, and I seriously doubt if he has ever attempted to compare audio cables. Therefore, despite his undeniable expertise in theoretical physics, he would not know diddly about highend audio design, components or cables, nor would he know what was typical and real world issues and performance for these kinds of components.

You seem to be saying that if someone where highly capable as a chemist, they would automatically know all about fine wines. This is ludicrous of course. A physicist is not automatically an expert on high end audio components, or audio cables either. Unless of course, you are concrned that one of your cables might cause a black hole to form, and need to know about this. :-)

[ Why isn't a coax cable sufficient for real world home audio? ]

Define sufficient. As in "good enough" like Tony wants us all to stop at? Just as there are those who want to realize ALL of the performance potential of their souped up car, their overclocked computer, their musical instrument, there are those who want the same of their home playback system.

The bottom line is that coax has been tried, compared to other geometries and shielding arrangements, and found wanting for that last iota of performance. Even without RFI blasting in. This has been the case for a HUGE number of audiophiles and music lovers. It has been the case for the most discriminating folks, and I thinknthat it has some meaning, that virtually ALL of the high performance aftermarket cable vendors abandon plain coax once you get past the entry level to mid-line models in their cable line-up.

[ Do you have some data that a twisted pair is an improvement in certain situations? ]

I have the results of my listening tests, as well as the corraboration of a great may audiophilers and music lovers. In point of fact, it provides an improvement in nearly ALL cases, and is one of the few things that is about as universal as can be possible for audio cables.

Since you do not accept any kind of evidence (AT ALL) regarding cable sonics in the first place, asking for evidence of even further refinements and subtleties is kind of a joke on your part, right? Like speaking authoritatively about bi-wiring, when you don't even allow that there are differences with single wiring. A moot point indeed from your POV. So I have to take it that the question was not even rhetorical, but rather, merely another red herring to throw into the hat.


Jon Risch


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